Does anyone know why the New Jersey Transit station in New York Penn Station is so crowded and has such inadequate seating? The space itself is relatively new and clean and attractive or as attractive as possible. But when ever I am there, which is on weekends, it is so crowded that it is difficult or impossible to find a seat. Also, I have fSound a seat only to have a homeless person sit next to me who clearly has mental problems and is making vague threats. That is pretty disconcerting. I know that NJT stations are public places. However, in Hoboken I have not noticed homeless people and in Newark, while there are some, they are not making threats. I have to wonder if there are some special problems at New York Penn Station.
The Amtrak section requires people to show a ticket to get to the seating area. There are no homeless people there and very few on the concourse where you have to stand or sit on the floor.
Amtrack owns the station. They can do what they want.
More space? Well we know that we need it, but where can you put it?
They surely can put NJT police in the waiting room to chase skells away, but that does cost money. How much more are you willing to pay for your ticket?
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
From what I understand, because New Jersey Transit and Amtrak share the North River tubes, and arriving and departing Amtrak trains are subject to delay, platform assignments for trains are ad hoc as any operating plan is rapidly overtaken by events. The Long Island platforms can be set up more predictably, particularly since the west side coach yard obviates deadhead moves to or from Long Island, which is where cars used to have to be laid up at midday.
Stephen Karlson, DeKalb, Illinois
NJ Transit can't have their own police in New York Penn Station. As Jersey cops their authority as such ends in the middle of the Hudson River. Unless there's a special rule authorizing it I'm not aware of.
Any police in NYP would have to be from the NYPD or the Port Authority Police. Mind you, sometimes there's a "gentlemens agreement" along state borders allowing cops to cross over and still maintain their police powers, but it's usually quite unofficial. Trust me, I got it from the cops themselves.
Don't Railroad Police have (under federal law) jurisdiction anywhere on railroad property, as long as they are licensed by some (any) state? I thought this was the rule for actual railroads (Union Pacific, Amtrak, etc.).
Perhaps NJTtransit is not considered a railroad, but a transit agency? Or NYP is not considered NJT property? Or NJT just doesn't want to assign their personnel to such a posting?
Amtrak police are Federal, like the FBI, so they can go anywhere and do anything. NJ Transit is a transit agency, so the interstate police powers that someone like UP's police have wouldn't apply.
I know NJ Transit runs trains as far as Port Jervis New York, but if their police powers extend that far I'm not aware of it. I rode the C&O 614 excursions from Hoboken to Port Jervis in the '90s on NJT and don't recall seeing any NJ Transit cops on the train.
If anyone has concrete info on just how far the NJ Transit's police jurisdiction goes and want's to correct me please feel free to do so!
As far as where would you find extra space at NYP, Lion, if you walk through NYP from the 7th Avenue entrace to Amtrak you pass through a large room that is empty except for the information booth. Given that I think more space could be found.
As far as how much would I pay for more police, I would easily be willing to have $1 added to my ticket, currently $3, for enough police to be safe. However, I doubt NJT lacks the money to make its station a safe place. I don't mind homeless people or poor people--when you ride buses you see plenty of them. But when safety is threatened I think I have a valid concern.
NYP is certainly not NJT property. And consider the history of railroads a bit. NYC allowed NH to use Grand Central Terminal; would they have allowed NH railroad police to operate in the waiting rooms there?
IGN, no, railfans do not need to be thankful about NJ Transit police not having a presence in Penn Station. The old head of the NJ Transit police department got fired some time back (the guy was a real screwball), and the new leadership got things straightened out. They aren't unduly harassing railfans any more.
Tom
TiesenhausenNYP is certainly not NJT property. And consider the history of railroads a bit. NYC allowed NH to use Grand Central Terminal; would they have allowed NH railroad police to operate in the waiting rooms there?
The New York and Harlem and the New York and New Haven Railroads made an agreement in 1848 or 49 to provide that the NY&NH could use the NY&H tracks into Manhattan. The New York Central Railroad did not exist at that time.
During the years I rode the New Haven Railroad I never saw anyone who remotely resembled a railroad police officer in any New Haven station. In the station the only railroad personnel in view were the ticket clerks unless a train stopped and conductors or porters got off at the stop.
aegrotatioNew York Penn Station was designed to accomodate commuters on the LIRR lines only. Those platforms are wide and open and very efficient for LIRR commuters.
Adgrotatio,
Is this really true? The Pennsylvania Railroad itself carried a fair number of commuters into New York Penn Station. I would think it would provide for its own passengers.
Of course it is true that today trains from the former Central Railroad of New Jersey, the Delaware Lackawanna and Western and I think even some from the Erie now zip right into New York Penn Station. The Pennsylvania Railroad would never ever have allowed those railroads direct access to Manhattan. It guarded its station jealously. So you are right about the increased number of trains that now muse the station. And yes, the platforms are narrow and cluttered but they are not impossible to navigate. I just wish the NJT station itself were larger or at least had some more seats to wait on.
John
aegrotatio NJT knows this and to solve it, NJT has had a long-standing proposal to build an underground, stub-end terminal at NYP for years. It is on permanent hold since the "ARC" tunnel project was cancelled by the NJ governor. Even if NJT builds this stub-end terminal, without more capacity under the Hudson River, they won't get more riders, just perhaps wider platforms and better passenger safety because the existing platforms are horrendously cramped and dangerous. They still need a new tunnel to get more riders to justify the expense.
NJT knows this and to solve it, NJT has had a long-standing proposal to build an underground, stub-end terminal at NYP for years. It is on permanent hold since the "ARC" tunnel project was cancelled by the NJ governor. Even if NJT builds this stub-end terminal, without more capacity under the Hudson River, they won't get more riders, just perhaps wider platforms and better passenger safety because the existing platforms are horrendously cramped and dangerous. They still need a new tunnel to get more riders to justify the expense.
It will probably be 15 - 20 Years to get the Gateway tunnels & also the expansion of NYP completed. If it would not interfer with the Gateway expansion why couldn't NJT lengthen the platforms and tracks for tracks 1 - 4 to the east ? That would allow NJT to lengthen trains to carry a greater number of passengers per train. What length trains can use these tracks now ? ? I realize that might be quite an undertaking but certainly could be completed faster than Gateway. The main thing would be " Will such a project slow expansion of Penn station ? ? "
As others beside myself have posted before, when Penn Station opened, almost all local service continued to use Exchange Place, Jersey City, with Manhattan-bound commuters using either H&M (now PATH) or PRR ferries or changing to PRR-H&M (again now PATH) at Manhattan Transfer. The Manhattan Transfer interchange was of course moved to Newark Penn Station. Until well after WWII the rush hour MP-54's and steam running through from Bay Head Jc, continued to run to Exchange Place. Only after about `1955 was there a gradual shift of commuter trains to Penn Station, as curtailment of long-distance service opened up slots through the tunnel, and the PRR wishing to reduce and then eliminate the ferry service. So, indeed, Penn Station was designed as a commuter termnal for LIRR but not for PRR.
Thank you for the information, Dave.
Like Aegrotatio I find it strange that, when building a new station, the Pennsylvania Railroad would not provide for as much of their rolling stock into New York as possible. I certainly understand why the New York and Long Branch as well as other steam locomotive pulled trains could not get into the tunnels. But the MP54's were all steel cars and powered by the same electricity the long distance trains used. No doubt an extra tunnel and possible extra tracks would have cost something to build. The the ferries did not run for free either.
I'm no expert here, just a casual reader. I suppose the railroad at the time the station was build believed it was the right thing to do.
Remember that the MP54's operated under catenary at 11,000 VAC only in Philadelphia suburban service while Penn Station when built operated on 600 VDC third-rail. Through trains were all steam-powered west of Manhattan Transfer.
To follow-up on what CSSHEGEWISCH said, the Penn Station original 3rd rail system was built in 1910. By the time they built the first Phily suburban electrification in 1915, they had seen the success of the AC overhead on the New Haven and chose that system. The MP54's were not around when they designed NYP. I would guess they put their long distance terminal on Manhattan to be competitive with the NYC on the Chicago trade, however, they may have felt that they did not need to out-compete anyone on the NJ commuter business. The NYP location was not particularly close to either the mid-town or downtown business districts.
John WR TiesenhausenNYP is certainly not NJT property. And consider the history of railroads a bit. NYC allowed NH to use Grand Central Terminal; would they have allowed NH railroad police to operate in the waiting rooms there? The New York and Harlem and the New York and New Haven Railroads made an agreement in 1848 or 49 to provide that the NY&NH could use the NY&H tracks into Manhattan. The New York Central Railroad did not exist at that time. During the years I rode the New Haven Railroad I never saw anyone who remotely resembled a railroad police officer in any New Haven station. In the station the only railroad personnel in view were the ticket clerks unless a train stopped and conductors or porters got off at the stop.
Johnny
Yes Johnny, I am old. Old enough to remember riding the New Haven in the 1950's. Old enough to remember Providence Station, a cavernous place that was always almost empty. And I never ever saw a railroad police man.
However, I once met a man in Haven's Diner in Providence, a short walk from the old station. He described his efforts to avoid railroad police. But he didn't ride the same trains I did.
The third-rail system is still in place for LIRR trains and the wire train, which was equipped with a DD-1 until some time in 1968.
I understant the wire train is sometimes powered by a special Amtrak or LIRR diesel with unually low emmissions, or a borrowed pair of LIRR mu pairs (4 cars, 16 axles and motors).
I believe it is maintained in both. One or both may have been out of service after Sandy.
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