For many Los Angeles residents subways are free. There is a fare; it is $1.50. However, collection is on the honor system and when fare beaters are caught nothing is done. There is no fine, now anything. However, Los Angeles transit officials are about to make a Draconian change of policy: They will install turnstiles. Not the strong ones at body height that are used in New York; only the waist high jumpable turnstiles New York used to use.
The change has its opponents. Transportation board member Richard Katz is one of them. He says: "I never thought it [installing turnstiles] was necessary... And I don't think it will ever pencil out. It's a hugh sinkhole of money. I think they were sold a bill of goods." That is certainly an interesting perspective, thinking outside the box. Perhaps Boston, New York City, Philadelphia and Washington are making an expensive mistake. Just tear down the turnstiles and move to an honor system. If Mr. Katz is right the increased revenue less all fare collecting expenses will just roll in.
But I admit I do not find his arguments persuasive. No doubt turnstiles, even low ones, will be expensive. But I think the Los Angeles subway will have more income because of them.
Here is a link to The New York Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/us/end-of-the-free-subway-ride-in-los-angeles.html?ref=us&_r=0
Turnstiles are not necessary. All they need to do is implement the system that used to be used on the San Jose light rail system.
Issue a dated receipt to each passenger -- day pass is fine. Be sure to note somewhere on this receipt, ideally in fine print on the back, that the propusk will need to be provided 'on any official demand'.
Then turn armed, black-shirted fascisti loose on the trains, who officially demand to see the receipts Or Else.
The Or Else in San Jose for 'failure to produce' involved being taken off the train in handcuffs, frog-marched to a waiting cruiser, run downtown to be arraigned or whatever, and presented with a $273 fine (I believe this was a minimum fine; if you 'resisted arrest' by backtalking, or whatever, YMMV unpleasantly...)
I saw this implemented the third day I rode the light rail to a conference. A hippie-ish type with backpack and love patch failed to produce, and at one point they had him lying on the floor of the car. Off he went at the next stop! Three cruisers with lights! Hands on the gun butts!
Salutary for Democrats at least was the fearful South-African-pass-law reaction of all the other passengers when Officer Unfriendly came into the car. They started frenetically holding out their little receipts like garlic to a vampire. The facial expressions and body language were priceless.
But it sure made that old honor system work beautifully! I confess that I hope Southern California does not imitate the Little Friskie element in this respect... but it would certainly provide more bang for the buck, in a number of ways, than ordinary turnstiles...
Sounds like Mr. Katz never heard the expression "sometimes you have to spend money to make money!"
No wonder the Left Coast's in money trouble.
Actually, Bob, New Jersey Transit uses a similar system on its light rail. To ride you buy AND VALIDATE a ticket. Ticket police make random checks. If you have no VALIDATED ticket you get a $75 find. If you have no id you are taken off the train in handcuffs.
There are problems. New people are often unfamiliar with the system and they omit the second step, VALIDATING their ticket. Many many people have been fined for what they claim are honest errors. The other problem with the Riverline is that indigent people on their way to pick up their $140 a month welfare check often do not buy a ticket at all. Often they have no id so they are handcuffed and taken off the train. I used to get off at the same stop to search for certain records so I saw this happen a lot. Many of these people appear to have mental retardation. I wonder what happens to them.
New Jersey Transit does post clear instructions if you know where to look but it can still be difficult when you are learning the system. NJT also uses ticket vending machines. They work well and are seldom out of order; however on a bright sunny day they are almost illegible. NJT does argue this method of fare collection is much less expensive than a turn style system would be.
John
NJT's light rail validation is well advertised at the ticket machines and at stations with step by step directions and warning for violations. You buy the ticket then put it in a validation machine which stamps a time from which you are allowed 1 hour riding. My Ridewithmehenry riders were aboard a Tonnelle Ave to West End train which was delayed while State Troopers boarded and checked tickets. Another time on the River Line there was a trooper aboard the train watching people but did not ask to check tickets and got off at an intermediate station. I was lucky when I first encountered the system years ago and did not validate my ticket not seeing the machine where it was to be validated and because of the imminent departure of the train, er, trolley, er, light rail vehicle...
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henry6 I was lucky when I first encountered the system years ago and did not validate my ticket not seeing the machine where it was to be validated and because of the imminent departure of the train, er, trolley, er, light rail vehicle...
You are right, Henry. The validation process is well advertised and not difficult. NJT does make a real effort to post written information to get the directions across. But even you with all of your experience using public transit found it a little confusing the first time. I'm glad you did not get a ticket.
My own experience is that NJT makes a lot greater effort on the RiverLine than on the Newark Light Rail Line.
On the RiverLine ticket inspectors fairly regularly board a train and inspect all tickets. As the train stops they will first stop the people getting off to see their tickets and then get on and check the tickets for the rest of the passengers. Then they get off.
At Newark Light Rail I never saw an inspector on the train. There were inspectors in the stations who inspected tickets for people getting off. I saw them at Military Park and at Newark Penn Station but I never saw them at Bloomfield Avenue which is where I got off coming home from work. At Military Park a sharp eyed fare beater need only stay on the train to Newark Penn Station. He could then get off the train, validate his ticket and ride one stop back and have the validated ticket to show the ticket checkers. At Newark Penn Station it is possible also to stay in the car as it turns around to go in the other direction and then get out. If ticket checkers are there too you could stay in and ride back to Military Park.
John WR However, collection is on the honor system and when fare beaters are caught nothing is done. There is no fine .... Here is a link to The New York Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/us/end-of-the-free-subway-ride-in-los-angeles.html?ref=us&_r=0 Xavier Nailing, 44, a hospital custodian, said he routinely rides without paying a fare, and does not fear the consequence of detection. “Nothing ever happens when someone writes me a ticket,” he said. “The last time someone wrote me a ticket I looked at the cop and said: ‘You know what, how long have you been on the force? You can write me that ticket but you’re going to stand there and watch me tear it up because I know it’s not going to be enforced.’ ”
However, collection is on the honor system and when fare beaters are caught nothing is done. There is no fine
....
Xavier Nailing, 44, a hospital custodian, said he routinely rides without paying a fare, and does not fear the consequence of detection. “Nothing ever happens when someone writes me a ticket,” he said. “The last time someone wrote me a ticket I looked at the cop and said: ‘You know what, how long have you been on the force? You can write me that ticket but you’re going to stand there and watch me tear it up because I know it’s not going to be enforced.’ ”
Xavier Nailing, 44, a hospital custodian, said he routinely rides without paying a fare, and does not fear the consequence of detection.
“Nothing ever happens when someone writes me a ticket,” he said. “The last time someone wrote me a ticket I looked at the cop and said: ‘You know what, how long have you been on the force? You can write me that ticket but you’re going to stand there and watch me tear it up because I know it’s not going to be enforced.’ ”
I was very surprised to hear that fare checking wasn't enforced, but sure enough, the article above quotes somebody who presumably has successfully ignored repeated citations. That's certainly not the case in New Jersey, where inspectors will check for prior violations, and if there are repeat unpaid priors will summon police to arrest fare evaders.
It looks to me like Los Angeles has, for whatever reason, simply decided not to enforce their Proof of Payment system, unlike numerous other operations throughout North America: Buffalo, NJT, Baltimore, Charlotte, St Louis, San Jose, San Diego, Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Denver, Sacramento where as far as I know ignoring an unpaid fare citation will get you in a big deal of trouble.
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gardendanceI was very surprised to hear that fare checking wasn't enforced,
Not only has fare paying not been enforced; at least one management official denies that fares are an important source of income. I find that interesting. It shows just how little agreement about basic policies there is.
From a transit user perspective I think the idea of a no fare system is a disservice. My experience is that transit authorities can make arbitrary and misguided decisions. A fare is a relatively small amount and it gives users a way to vote with our dollars for the routes we needs. That is important.
John WRNot only has fare paying not been enforced; at least one management official denies that fares are an important source of income. I find that interesting. It shows just how little agreement about basic policies there is.
The cost of day to day operation (capital expenses apart, but debt included) MUST be paid up front. That is you may NEVER borrow to pay for day to day operating expenses.
The money in question comes from two places: The Fare Box, and the Tax Man. Each locality must for itself decide how much from each. Inner city service may want more from the taxman and less from the turnstile. Out in Commuter Land, a much greater percentage is paid by the ticket holder.
LION has proposed *free* service on some lines, particularly in NYC where the rider would usually have to transfer to a subway train to get to some destination, as this speeds up the loading and operation of the beese. (Plural of bus).
The most important purpose of the fare is to keep the riff-raff off of the system, unless your city only has riff-raff in witch case you are skrued.
ROAR
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BroadwayLion The cost of day to day operation (capital expenses apart, but debt included) MUST be paid up front. That is you may NEVER borrow to pay for day to day operating expenses. The money in question comes from two places: The Fare Box, and the Tax Man. Each locality must for itself decide how much from each. Inner city service may want more from the taxman and less from the turnstile. Out in Commuter Land, a much greater percentage is paid by the ticket holder.
I agree. But management usually has a strong sense of how much they can expect from the legislature. And operating with money from the legislature is really a lot easier than collecting fares. As long as things are stable why should management go to the work of making fare collection a big deal if they don't really have to?
Keeping out the riff raff can be important. In New Jersey, anyway, large stations have a contingent of homeless people, especially in cold weather. The law limits the ways management can deal with them. A few days ago I was waiting in New York Penn Station for a New Jersey Transit train. The station was crowded. I was lucky to have a seat in the waiting room. Next to me was a man who smelled of alcohol and also of being unwashed. He was asleep and causing no one any problem but it was not really pleasant. I have a high tolerance for this kind of thing but my neighbor did not and was complaining. Yet I know the the guy was not causing a disturbance so the police could not do anything. I was happy to wait a few minutes for my train and leave him alone.
BroadwayLion LION has proposed *free* service on some lines, particularly in NYC where the rider would usually have to transfer to a subway train to get to some destination, as this speeds up the loading and operation of the beese. (Plural of bus).
Beese is the plural of bus for every bus that is spelled 'boose'. That, however, is not how we normally spell it... or even abnormally. Everyone with a Stanford education recognizes that the REAL plural of 'bus' is 'bi'
(we will leave the etymological 'link' to kissing for another post!)
OvermodBeese is the plural of bus for every bus that is spelled 'boose'. That, however, is not how we normally spell it... or even abnormally. Everyone with a Stanford education recognizes that the REAL plural of 'bus' is 'bi'
Clearly you are not a follower of SubChat. That is their particular spelling of that word, mostly used to poke fun at the BusChat forum, although they use it too.
the use of RFID "GOTO" cards here in Minneapolis/St. Paul has sped up boarding and bus rides considerably. The card is good on buses (beese), light rail and commuter rail. The card must be swiped entering the bus (that takes the appropriate value off the card and validates it for the next 2.5 hours). For the light rail and commuter rail the card is swiped on a machine at the platform. Transit police can validate the card using their smart phones. This is a good system and even the public school system has started to issue the GOTO card to those who previously rode the yellow school buses. Employers can subsidize the card and schools are providing the cards as far cheaper than expanding the parking lots. The honor system is enforced and a $85 fine imposed if caught without.
petitnjhe use of RFID "GOTO" cards here in Minneapolis/St. Paul has sped up boarding and bus rides considerably. The card is good on buses (beese), light rail and commuter rail.
The Minneapolis/St. Paul Trcasansit Authority is far ahead of New Jersey Transit.
Here each form of transit operates differently with some overlaps.
Buses. Cash fare is dropped in an old fashioned fare box. Seniors and the disabled get half fare but the only form of payment is cash exact fare. Regular commuters have the option of buying a commuter pass good for an unlimited number of rides all month. Or they and other riders pay in cash. It is common for people to wander through the bus seeking someone who can break a bill so they will have exact change.
Light Rail. You buy a ticket at a vending machine and VALIDATE your ticket at a VALIDATING machine. If you only buy a ticket and don't VALIDATE it you are subject to a $75 fine. Monthly commuter passes are also available. Again, seniors and the disabled pay half fare.
Rail. Buy your ticket from a ticket agent or a vending machine. No need to validate. Train personnel collect the tickets. You can buy a ticket on the train but there is a $5 penalty. Monthly commuter passes are also available. Monthly passes are especially popular on trains as train fares are quite high and a monthly pass provides about a 30 per cent discount over daily tickets. Again, seniors and the disabled can travel for half fare but there is no monthly pass for them. However, they can pay on the train with no penalty.
New Jersey Transit has high fares but is quite generous with seniors and the disabled. Most of them probably would not buy a monthly pass if it were offered because if you commute to work and miss a few days you save that buy buying a daily ticket.
From reading the various posts, I now understand the validation system better. I encountered it in San Jose a few years ago when my wife and I rode the ACE to Stockton. There was no explanation at all of the system on the machine in the station; just the statement, more or less, that it was necessary to have a ticket validated before boarding the train. I bought our tickets from the ACE vendor, and we had no problem at all.
Johnny
There is usually no problem validating tickets with New Jersey Transit either. Just stick it in the validation machine and it is time stamped. And NJT does post clear instructions. The problem, especially for first times users, is that they are unaware of what they have to do, there are only a few lines that require validation and you aren't born knowing this stuff; it has to be learned. And NJT either lets you get away with not validating or provides a Draconian penalty. I mean hauling a man who appears to be retarded off in handcuffs while he is on his way to collect his monthly income of $140 and then fining him $75 is pretty harsh. But that is what I have seen New Jersey Transit do.
Overmod Issue a dated receipt to each passenger -- day pass is fine. Be sure to note somewhere on this receipt, ideally in fine print on the back, that the propusk will need to be provided 'on any official demand'. Then turn armed, black-shirted fascisti loose on the trains, who officially demand to see the receipts Or Else.
It wouldn't surprise me if the LAMTA decided on a closed door 'quid pro quo' - reducing Sheriff staffing to save money and substituting turnstiles. Absolutely this will turn out to be a financial disaster since most of the system is above ground with minimal physical security.
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MikeF90Absolutely this will turn out to be a financial disaster since most of the system is above ground with minimal physical security.
It boggles my mind to think that Los Angeles would build a whole rapid transit system where fare collection is difficult or impossible.
Above ground systems are very difficult and expensive to build a secure fare enforcement structure. Subways are different. Turnstiles are usually used when the fare varies with distance traveled.
CATS (Charlotte) has ticket vending machines on every platform. The machine prints the date, time, and station where it was issued on the ticket. Charlotte Police periodically board the train and check for tickets. I get checked frequently. They are very friendly and they do not delay the train. They get on, ride one or two stations, get off and then check the train going in the other direction, arriving back where they started. If you do not have a valid ticket you get arrested. It is a misdemeanor, I am not sure how much the fine is. The stations in city center have a yellow line delineating a "fare zone". You cannot be inside that line without a ticket, whether or not you are boarding a train. During rush hour, when the trains are packed, they check people randomly on the platform as they get off. That keeps the pan handlers off the platform bugging the people waiting for the train. There is only one fare rate. A one way ticket is good only outbound from the station where it was issued, for 40 minutes. A round trip ticket is good until the end of the day going toward the station where it was issued. Day, week, and month passes are also available.
Dave
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