This article is brief, but includes a map and pics. It may interest current and former new Yorkers.
http://www.architizer.com/en_us/blog/dyn/36896/a-prospective-high-line-in-queens-sparks-transportation-debate/
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Ahhh, yes. The old Rockaway Branch, the southern part of which hosts the MTA's A train out to Far Rockaway and the A and S trains to Rockaway Beach. This part has lay dorment and over grown since a hurricane foreced the LIRR to quit the line. Curiously, from Rego Park where it connected with the line to Penn Sta. all the way to where the A train picks up, the infrastructure is virtually intact except for the signal system wiring. Even the third rail is there! And this story gets a new spark every year or so and still nothing is done.
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Fifty years ago my grandmother lived in Rego Park. I remember going up to a LIRR station for a look, but it did not seem well used. The abandoned section of the line touches 3 other LI lines, but SPV's atlas shows all stations at the junctions are closed, even though the other lines are active. If the active lines don't sustain stations in the area, what would be the point of opening an apparent redundant line?
It,in effect, was not a redundent line. It provided train service direct from Penn Station to Rockaway shorther than via Jamaica and Valley Stream. It did not connect with either the Lower Montauk line Long Island City to Jamaica nor the Brooklyn Atlantic Aveune line to Jamaica. The trestle and causeway across Jamaica Bay was a maintenance headache; the hurricane of I think 1959 did it in for the bankrupt railroad. NYC saw the need and an opportunity and took it off the LIRR's hands.
Check out the several books on the LIRR at your library starting with Ron Ziels Steel Rails to the Sunrise.
henry6 It,in effect, was not a redundent line. It provided train service direct from Penn Station to Rockaway shorther than via Jamaica and Valley Stream. It did not connect with either the Lower Montauk line Long Island City to Jamaica nor the Brooklyn Atlantic Aveune line to Jamaica. The trestle and causeway across Jamaica Bay was a maintenance headache; the hurricane of I think 1959 did it in for the bankrupt railroad. NYC saw the need and an opportunity and took it off the LIRR's hands. Check out the several books on the LIRR at your library starting with Ron Ziels Steel Rails to the Sunrise.
While I would rather take the LI than the subway, the far end of the line does have replacement transit. I don't live in the NY area anymore but my library does have an old PRR book that confirms Glendale Jct and Woodhaven Jct. I was not trying to say that there was passenger service thru the junctions, but only that there were apparently nearby stations that are not in use.
I agree with the post that suggests multiple use (We have such a line near to where I live now.) On the at grade sections construct the path alongside the track. In the 4 track sections of viaduct, they could leave in 2 tracks and use the rest for bike/walkway. If there are 2 track bridges, they could temporary cover one of the tracks for a path until they decide what to do with the track (another 50 years?)
With all the other projects around NY (eg., NEC Hudson tunnel) needing money, reactivating this line would seem to be well down the priority list..
The "far" end of the line with alternate service would have to be the LIRR from Far Rockaway to Brooklyn or Penn Station via Valley Stream and Jamaica. The selling point would be a seat, but getting to Far Rockaway from the Rockaway island is difficult...not an across the platform or even street to get to the LIRR. So the "A" train is what makes it...cheaper I'm sure, and quicker, too. Wins even if you have to stand I suppose.
I really would much rather see it double-tracked, with a park alongside. Could LIRR equipment go on to Rockaway Park?
I don't believe LIRR equipment is compatable with MTA from platform heights to curveatures. So, no, LIRR stuff could not, today, make the trip.
They had the opportunity to use this for the JFK AirTrain but instead elected to build a much more expensive (and only half-implemented) elevated two-line system. The portion along the Van Wyck Expressway is built above the highway at considerable expense.
Using the Rockaway Branch would have easily connected LaGuardia and the 7 and E-F-R subways and removing the need for the A subway connection. Sadly, LaGuardia is still totally inaccessible by rail.
Has the JFK line met expectations? Is there a long term plan to build a line to LaGuardia?
The AirTrain as it exists today is an abortive effort using the funds available. While we would all like rail to LaGuardia, it's not going to happen anytime soon, if ever. Since JFK is so much more busy than LaGuardia maybe this is a good thing, but traditionally LaGuardia is for domestic and JFK is for international. If a big fan of trains wants to travel to NYC via air, perhaps he or she might investigate Newark Liberty (EWR) airport and its NJ Transit connections, or those few domestic flights (at considerable premium) that do go to JFK.
LaGuardia is a taxicab airport and will remain that way indefinitely. Sigh.
The JFK AirTrain is a question in my mind. On one of our RideWithMeHenry trips we did ride the entire line and found it full on every turn. Other observations from LIRR and A train platforms seem to indicate it is well used; but if that is not as busy as was planned, then I don't know what to say. It is a captive system....a $5 fare to get you to the JFK Terminals; a $5 fare to get you out; thus buil specifically to handle JFK patrons and not pedestrians from Jamaica to Rockaway Park or Beach (you have to loop the Airport then change to Howard Beach train by paying new fare, thus as time consuming as the J train to Broadway Jct. and at 4 times the fare). It is a nice show piece but, yeah, I question its practicality. There used to be a Train to the Plane off the 6th Ave. Line to Howard Beach but needed a bus transfer to the terminals there. A train direct from Penn or GCT would be ideal. Howard Beach is the railhead but there is room to build a line closer to the terminal. Newark Airport, an Amtrak and NJT stop needs a one mile monorail trip from the station to the terminals, too, and the public seems to use. Philadelphia has train service to and from the Airport and Boston's Logan is right on one of the lines, too; neither demands another transfer. In the end, I do think there is a lot of room and and row's for NYC's MTA and Port Authroity to come up with a good system. HMMM...how about PATH from Newark to JFK to LaGuardia? Don't hit me that hard!
henry6 Boston's Logan is right on one of the lines, too; neither demands another transfer.
Boston's Logan is right on one of the lines, too; neither demands another transfer.
Convenient, but not right on the line. You have to ride a free shuttle bus from the terminals to the MBTA Blue Line Airport Station subway stop.
Yes it did connect with both the LICity-Jamaica freight line, via an interchange freight track at Fresh Pond Junction (nno passenger service or stop or connection avialable) , and did connect withi the Atlantic Avenue line to Flatbush Avenue with direct passenger service. I posted a tail of how I ahd the Columbia Grammer Prep football team took the wrong train from Woodmere (we were playing Woodmere Academy) and ended up at Atlantic and Flatbush in Brooklyin, much to the delight of the Brooklyn students, instead of Penn Station. Some mu trains went froim Penn to Valley stream, down through Far Rockaway, and then back over Jamaica Bay through Broad Channel and then to Faltbush and AStlantic. Or the other way aroiund. Or from Flatobush and Atlantic to Valley Stream and back over the Bay to Penn Stqation. Or the other way around. The good thing about trips from either Penn or Brookliyn to the Rockaways (and trains also ran to and from Rockaway Park via any of the four combinations: (Penn via Bay, Brooklyin via Bay, Penn via Valley Stream, Brooklyn via Valley Stream), is that you bypassedd Jamaica completely.
Yes, I remember your earlier posting, Dave. What it all underscores is that the railroad was built with operational or physical redundencies (as were other railroads) but was also segmented or aligned into marketing services.
I have fond memories of riding the LIRR to Rockaway with my parents. We boarded at Brooklyn Manor then over Jamaica Bay & Broad Channel. It was a great ride for a kid back then.
LIRRMAN
Cincinnati, Ohio
leewal I have fond memories of riding the LIRR to Rockaway with my parents. We boarded at Brooklyn Manor then over Jamaica Bay & Broad Channel. It was a great ride for a kid back then. LIRRMAN Cincinnati, Ohio
It's the same (great, according to one's perspective) ride today, excpet that it is by MTA's A train or S train from Howard Beach to Rockaway Beach. But it is done at the MTA' s $2.50 ride instead of the LIRR's railroad rates. When the NYC subways' first took over it was an extra fare ride, now same as any MTA fare.
The right-of-way has various problems due to its age and neglect but, more importantly, due to encroachment. There's a bus garage and little league baseball stadium (but arguably the stadium does not encroach, it just needs isolation to keep kids off the tracks).
The bridges are in seriously bad shape, and of course, the old wooden trestle is burned down.
It's an interesting piece of history.
But my point was more to the fact that we don't have rail to LaGuardia which is an idiotic situation for New York City.
I should also add that in addfition to the some eight services I mentioned, there were also occasional locals from Rockaway Park to either Valley Stream or Jamaica..
Furthermore, the Rockaway "loopl" and the Atlantic Avenue Brooklyin line were the very first LIRR lines to be electrified, before the main line than to LICity and a few years later to Penn Station (opened by the LIRR in advance of PRR trains), and very first LIRR electric trains ran from Flatbush and Atlantic to Rockaway Park or arouind the Far Rockaway loop. These early LIRR mu cars were not MP-54's, but were MP-48's, nearly identacle to the first steel cars of the IRT. The summer of 1905 saw the first LIRR trains into Manhattan, but not into Penn Station. A special summer service was jointly operated by the BRT (elevated) and the LIRR from at first Essex and Delancy St., then Chambers and Center Streets (Nassau Loop line much later) over the Williamsburgh Briudge onto the Broadway (Bklyn) elevated, and bewtween E. NY and Cypress, there was a ramp from the elevated on east Fulton St. to the Atlatnic Avenue LIRR tracks one-block away. The destination and start for the return was Rockaway Park reached by the line over Jamaica Bay. The red steel LIRR mu's alternated with trains of BMT 'gate cars." So the first LIRR trains to Manhattan reached Manhattan over the Brooklyn elevatged system, and the first BMT-lines steel car operation was with LIRR cars!
From about 1895 to 1901 another ramp eixted in downtown Brookly at the Atalntic Terminal. LIRR trains ran to the elevated Sands Street Terminal. Power was LIRR Fonrey locomotives similar to thhose used on the elevateds and the IC suburban.
Thanks Dave....For those interested in visiting this history, you can. Almost. Ride the J train from Jamaica LIRR station into Manhatten. It used to be elevated along Jamaica Ave. but was put underground from the LIRR Main line to the station. Still, for about 45 minutes to an hour, you have a great ride from the portal next to the LIRR, across part of Morris Park, over the LIC or Lower Montauk,over the Rockaway ROW, above ground intersecting of the M line, views of several MTA yard facilities and other specatular Jamaica Ave and Broadway sights including crossing the East River on the Williiamsburg Bridge before ducking under the streets of Manhatten. And I think you can still ride the head car and see what the motorman sees!
Part of the elevated on Jamaica Avenue still exists. Onl the outer part of the line got shifted into the Archer Avenue two-level subway. Archer Avenue has an unusual subway in that the two-track upper level is used by the J line, Jamaica Avenue, East Fulton Street, Broadway (Brooklyn) and the Williamsburg Bridge to Manhatan, Delancy and Essex, Chambers Street (near City Hall) and Broad and Nassau Streets. The lower level is used by the E line, Queens Boulevard, 53rd Street tunnel into Manhattan, 8th Avenue to Wolrd Trade Center. So you can go out one way and come back another for the same fare. But the E-train return is all underground, and I'd spring for a fast ride on the LIRR for the return, non-stop from Jamaica to Penn Station.
Back in the 50's riding from midtown Manhatten to my granparents in Jamaica most always meant the E out Queens Blvd to Sutphin Blvd., never the the all stops local F; the line went ot 179th St. The BMT Jamaica Ave. EL went to 169th St. First choice for riding was the E train for the 45 minute rather than 60+ minute ride on the F or BMT; of course subway fare trumphed LIRR fare. We still had our share of rides on all lines plus the trolley to Astoria (I think) when certain relatives were to be visited. My mother's father understood my love of trains and trolleys enough that all lines were chosen and utilized when practical. The walking tours along Liberty Ave. were most enlightening if not dangerous. The four lanes of traffic with no real sidewalk was an accepted trade for a through the fence peek at steam engines on the turntable, a walk north around the west side of the yards up to Jamaica Ave. with a stop at the Bungalow Bar yard...that is the place the local ice cream vendor trucks parked and an attendent was always ready to sell some wares to my grandfather for his two grandsons entow. And it was under the elevated tracks of the BMT and along side the passenger car yard on the LIC branch. DId that walk when we weren't on the LIRR platforms watching trains and cleaning up the coin slots of the public phones...on a Friday night in the 50's we could net 5 to 10 bucks in nickles, dimes, and quarters between us...enought to stop the Bungalow Bar truck on the street in front of the house.
There once was was a trolley line to Astoria, the Steinway Lines one on Stteinway street from Queens Plaza. Quit before WWII. But the trolley you rode, the only one remaining in New York State until 1957 after the last Brooklyn PCC lines quit in 1954, was the 2nd Avenue (underground terminal) - Queens Plaza Quennsboro Bridge line, then using ex-New Bedford :Automotive-desgn (similer to Brill Master Units) 1929 lightweights.
Yes, I did ride the Queensboro Bridge line once, a few weeks before the end. But also rode west from Jamaica into Queens toward Astoria to visit a family friend and several other times for some reason...my grandparents lived there near the Jamaica Arena. I was born in 1943 but lived in NJ after 1946, so you can imagine my mind has vivid pictures with no facts!
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