NY Mayor Bloomburg is again pushing a plan to have the MTA 7 train tunnel under the Hudson to New Jersey...this appears to be parallel to the current Amtrak/NJT Corridor into Pennsylvania Staion and would be a continuation of the parallel 7 line to the LIRR east out of Penn. I'm not too sure what would be gained from this given that NJT and Amtrak are working on a new tunnel program a deliver riders in Manhatten, possibly even with better East Side connections. I can understand his interest in helping the New Jersey work force get to the City's east side. But....
...I'm wondering if such a Hudson Crossing shouldn't be given to PATH as an extension of thier route at 33rd Street. Concieveably it could work so that the line be built not only into NJ and probably to Secaucus Jct., but also further south (railroad west) to Kearney or along the CSX RIver LIne or NYSW's reach to Jersey CIty and linking back to PATH's Newark line allowing for a lot of varieties of riding.
One would be a loop in both dirctions...a simple continuous circle. Two could be to and from Newark, World Trade, or Hoboken and return. Three cold be to Newark's Penn Station on existing route or could also be accomplished using abandoned Erie ROW's across the Passaic River and then turn south to Newark Penn via Newark Broad. Ridership patterns would be really scattered, too, whether there are loop trains or not. I know there would be problems between MTA and PATH similar to what exists from WTC to 33rd St. being cheaper on PATH than subway. That is taken care of by not making connection timings attractive enough to save the fare difference though few will do it. (WTC to Hoboken to 33rd St. or via Grove St. or Exchange St....but all connections are 10 or more minutes I believe).
The 7 Train extension makes sense to me only if the idea is to get more people to the east side. The PATH plan would not give an east side delivery but might give New Jersey riders broader choices.
And these are only thoughts off the top of my head...no research or engineering...just looking at this all at face value..
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Not knowing anything about the subject is of course no barrier to joining an internet discussion so here goes....
Perhaps the thinking is that once a passenger boards the Number 7 subway they are already on the NYC Transit system and therefore can go anywhere in the city. Passengers already have to transfer between commuter rail and subways now.
Another possibility is that there would be a clear cost sharing mandate since it is a New York subway being extended into New Jersey.
The argument against the extension, as far as I can see, is that it would do little to alleviate congestion in the Hudson River tunnels for the existing commuter rail routes.
Kevin
Atlantic and Hibernia Not knowing anything about the subject is of course no barrier to joining an internet discussion so here goes.... Perhaps the thinking is that once a passenger boards the Number 7 subway they are already on the NYC Transit system and therefore can go anywhere in the city. Passengers already have to transfer between commuter rail and subways now. Another possibility is that there would be a clear cost sharing mandate since it is a New York subway being extended into New Jersey. The argument against the extension, as far as I can see, is that it would do little to alleviate congestion in the Hudson River tunnels for the existing commuter rail routes. Kevin
You are right about a lot of things here, Kevin...with how little it will alleviate congestion on Amtrak and NJT being just one. The NY and NJ Port Authority has juristiction in Hudson River crossings and not the MTA, so there will be a little hasseling and haggling there. Changing to a subway train in NJ so as to be able to ride any subway line in the system is a non factor since there is no fare difference between Sec. Jct. and NYP on NJT and all subways are accessable at Penn sta. anyway. So the real question is therefore, "why?" That has to be answered and defined before any arguement can really take place. One of the most voiced problems is to get a way of allowing NJ commuters to access the East Side of Manhatten...if you look at any subway map for instance, you will see that there is a lot of uptown/downtown service at Penn but to go to the East Side you must go north at least to 42nd St. then get the Shuttle to GCT to get a Lexington Ave. train uptown or downtown. If one elects to go to Hoboken or Newark and then ferry or PATH to WTC, there is less of a problem of getting to the East side, but still it is percieved to be a problem. So, Mayor Bloomberg's idea appears to want to get NJ people to the east side of Manhatten. Which may or may not be a good idea. My own opinion is that the fight witht he NY&NYPA will be the hang up if not totally shutting the idea down, then at least making headlines and delays.
Henry I seem to remember that passengers to Rockaway and Far Rockaway at one time had to pay extra fare in and out. Is that still the rule? I know some other systems have the same thing?
Wonder what the extra fare if one was implemented would be?
to Jersey ??? forgetaboutit !!!
since when does mayor of NY have any input or influence on MTA doings ??
keep on dreaming bloomie
blue streak 1 Henry I seem to remember that passengers to Rockaway and Far Rockaway at one time had to pay extra fare in and out. Is that still the rule? I know some other systems have the same thing? Wonder what the extra fare if one was implemented would be?
I had forgotten about that! Yes, when the MTA (or whoever was in charge) took over the line after the LIRR abandonment in the 50's there was a zone charge or something like that. But it was recinded at some point so that the whole subway system was the same price with no zone or extra fares, It was probably cumbersome to account, hard to wake up the car's residents who either didn't have the fare or any notion of where they were. Or why. All kidding aside, the MTA Subway is a one price ride (or admission as I look at it as you can take as many rides as you want for one fare!) and not based on a zone system. LIRR, MNRR and even NJT work on a zone concept in pricing tickets.
henry6 talked to soomeone who was there. At one time it was another token to exit anywhere on the Rockaways and 2 tokens to enter. With Metro cards now would really be easy? How else to pay for tunnels to Secacus that would cost $4 - 8B? Not cost effective IMHO. Instead use that money to help pay for the 2 new North River tunnels? Isn't the 7 line going to terminate just south of the proposed Penn Station expansion. Sounds like a shorter walk than a Secacus connection. Also the speed of NYC subways are limited to ( ? ) MPH vs probably new North River tunnels of 90 MPH ?
blue streak 1 henry6 talked to soomeone who was there. At one time it was another token to exit anywhere on the Rockaways and 2 tokens to enter. With Metro cards now would really be easy? How else to pay for tunnels to Secacus that would cost $4 - 8B? Not cost effective IMHO. Instead use that money to help pay for the 2 new North River tunnels? Isn't the 7 line going to terminate just south of the proposed Penn Station expansion. Sounds like a shorter walk than a Secacus connection. Also the speed of NYC subways are limited to ( ? ) MPH vs probably new North River tunnels of 90 MPH ?
I am trying to decipher what you have said here, bluestreak1. I said I remember the extra fare but not having talked to someone who was there...I wasn't even a teenager when it happend, was living in NJ, and had close relatives living in NYC and on LI at the time. And yes, the connection to the 7 Train's new west side terminal would be easier than is now. Speed through the Amtrak tunnels is no where near 90mph...train schedules show Bergen on the west side of the tunnel at mp 37. from Penn Sa and elapsed time of 10 minutes inbound and six minutes outbound which is closer to 35 mph average. Remember, going into a terminal, especially a stub end, means restrictive signals and restricted speeds to the bumper block; even short blocks in the one or two miles would slow things down quite a bit. And subways probably would be 30 to 50 mph with the same bumper block terminal speed restrictions. But none of this matters because the MTA does not have the authority to run a line to NJ. It will, in the end, be up to the NY and NJ Port Authority as it falls under thier political and legal juristictions. This is all political posturing by Bloomburg no matter how sincere his proposal.
henry6 . And yes, the connection to the 7 Train's new west side terminal would be easier than is now. Speed through the Amtrak tunnels is no where near 90mph...train schedules show Bergen on the west side of the tunnel at mp 37. from Penn Sa and elapsed time of 10 minutes inbound and six minutes outbound which is closer to 35 mph average. Here I go not explaining fully; I believe TT speed past portal draw to entrance of North River tunnels is 90 MPH ? Then 60 MPH in present tunnels ? The western puzzle switches at NYP are presently 15 MPH but already have a grant to upgrade them to 30 MPH. If the proposed new North River tunnels are built IMHO they would be at least 90 MPH until trains get to approach NYP. Westbound out of NYP trains would accelerate rapidly out of the South Penn station? But none of this matters because the MTA does not have the authority to run a line to NJ. It will, in the end, be up to the NY and NJ Port Authority as it falls under thier political and legal juristictions. This is all political posturing by Bloomburg no matter how sincere his proposal. Absolutely agree!!
. And yes, the connection to the 7 Train's new west side terminal would be easier than is now. Speed through the Amtrak tunnels is no where near 90mph...train schedules show Bergen on the west side of the tunnel at mp 37. from Penn Sa and elapsed time of 10 minutes inbound and six minutes outbound which is closer to 35 mph average.
Here I go not explaining fully; I believe TT speed past portal draw to entrance of North River tunnels is 90 MPH ? Then 60 MPH in present tunnels ? The western puzzle switches at NYP are presently 15 MPH but already have a grant to upgrade them to 30 MPH. If the proposed new North River tunnels are built IMHO they would be at least 90 MPH until trains get to approach NYP. Westbound out of NYP trains would accelerate rapidly out of the South Penn station?
But none of this matters because the MTA does not have the authority to run a line to NJ. It will, in the end, be up to the NY and NJ Port Authority as it falls under thier political and legal juristictions. This is all political posturing by Bloomburg no matter how sincere his proposal.
Absolutely agree!!
New York would be a much better place if there were just direct connections to PATH and be done with it. Sure, not a one-seat ride, but it's ludicrous that PATH doesn't connect to subway at all Manhattan stops.
This is a legacy problem.
It not a "legacy" problem. It is a political problem. A defniition problem. A fiefdom problem. And again a political problem...et al. It's not just that it has been that way for years but that it will be that way for years to come.
henry6 It not a "legacy" problem. It is a political problem. A defniition problem. A fiefdom problem. And again a political problem...et al. It's not just that it has been that way for years but that it will be that way for years to come.
Somehow, I find in that admission (from a tireless advocate of additional public transit) the reason why so many of us are hesitant to support any substantial expansion of rail transit with the federal dollar. At least Henry gets points for being an honest man.
Many wouldn't go so far to say I'm an honest man,,,even me sometimes, too, I suppose. But I do carry a lantern... ...got it as a kid when I was about 10 while visiting Penn Sta with my father, brother and some friends. A trainman jumped up on the platfrom from between a baggage car and a GG1 and asked me if I liked trains and if I wanted a lantern...I said yes, yes, he said wait a minute, boarded the engine and came back handing me a genuine PRR lantern..while walking the city for the rest of the day policemen kept telling me I was in the wrong place! Still got the lantern some 60 years later...and still looking!
If I remember correctly, the PA bonds (at least, 40 years ago, they did) all have a covenant prohibiting the PA from building any more commuter rail service. This wouldn't apply to any MTA operations, but it would prevent the PA from considering funding the tunnel.
This is a most interesting restriction since the Port Authority funded the purchase of at least some of the M-1 cars on LIRR.
I've been hearing about extending the Number 7 line since they built the Meadowlands complex and the whole idea was to get New Yorkers to the arenas. Henry6, the cops must have assumed you were looking for an "honest man."
Where is PATH in all this?They should be given the route since they already go between NYC & NJ
Yes, PATH, i.e. ThePort Authority, has been silent. And as I have pointed out, it is the one with the charter right to build and operate rapid transit (not intercity, not commuter railroad) over or under the Hudson. MTA does not have that charter right . But it is a neat power play by Bloomberg.
I think all the non-New York people are missing the big point of the 7 line going to NJ rather than PATH to the East side.
Collecting the Subway Sales Tax from all those folks living in Bergin County and any other NJ counties the subway is routed through. I lived in Orange County (Monroe, NY) and we got tagged for the 0.25% sales tax for our three and a half trains each way each day (if a train gets to Hoboken, NJ after 9:00 AM it's not a real commuter train for NYC).
I know the Second Avenue subway is dead but is anything happening with the LIRR to GCT?
Jim in Fla I think all the non-New York people are missing the big point of the 7 line going to NJ rather than PATH to the East side. Collecting the Subway Sales Tax from all those folks living in Bergin County and any other NJ counties the subway is routed through. I lived in Orange County (Monroe, NY) and we got tagged for the 0.25% sales tax for our three and a half trains each way each day (if a train gets to Hoboken, NJ after 9:00 AM it's not a real commuter train for NYC). I know the Second Avenue subway is dead but is anything happening with the LIRR to GCT?
I'm not sure the 2nd Ave subway is dead...I believe there is tunnel work being done. And the LIRR to GCT work is well underway from LIC. Yes, the idea of bringing Jerseyans to the E. Side of Manhatten is one of the major points overlooked in many arguements and discussions. I still don't see the 7 train incursion into NJ as long as the Port Authoirity's PATH owns trans Hudson franchise for rapid transit. Perhaps the 33rd St. line should be extended to 42nd street and then on to GCT on the Shuttle tracks? Or PATH take over the shuttle and drive under to NJ at 42nd St.? HMMMmmmm....something new to ponder....
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.