When did the CNW o RTA stop service between Kenosha and Milwaukee and why. Milwaukee is wanting a new form of transportation these days.
Hi - I believe passenger service on the CNW north of Kenosha ended with the start up of Amtrak in May of 1971.
Art
C&NW's suburban service on the North Line always ended at Kenosha. Everything north of there was considered intercity service even though it was shown in North Line timetables and was discontinued on April 30, 1971.
CSSHEGEWISCH C&NW's suburban service on the North Line always ended at Kenosha. Everything north of there was considered intercity service even though it was shown in North Line timetables and was discontinued on April 30, 1971.
Was and is this a CTC single track line?
What was the timing from CHI - MKE on C&NW best and at Amtrak day?
How much improvement will the soon to happen UP upgrading of this line have on speeds?
Is there much push to have this as a second route to MKE?
Just prior to Amtrak, Chicago-Milwaukee timings were running at about 95 minutes, including 3 or 4 intermediate stops. It wouldn't work too well as a second route since there isn't any way of getting into Chicago Union Station from this route.
CSSHEGEWISCH It wouldn't work too well as a second route since there isn't any way of getting into Chicago Union Station from this route.
It wouldn't work too well as a second route since there isn't any way of getting into Chicago Union Station from this route.
Given that Ogilvie (ex-North Western Madison St. Terminal) is a short two block walk to Union, I'm not sure that, in and of itself would be so terrible.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
How about a connection of
1. Kenosha - Ranney? or
2. North Chicago - Rondout (CN?) or
3. Renew connection at Clinton Street since Grand Ave Yard (C&NW) had a convoluted connection to Union Station?
Suggestions 1 and 2 defeat the purpose of using the C&NW route since the trips would still bypass the North Shore suburbs, service to which seems to be one of the goals of re-establishing this route. Suggestion 3 may not be practicable since this would require the upgrading of what is now little more than an industrial lead from near the Clybourn station.
blue streak 1 CSSHEGEWISCH: C&NW's suburban service on the North Line always ended at Kenosha. Everything north of there was considered intercity service even though it was shown in North Line timetables and was discontinued on April 30, 1971. Was and is this a CTC single track line? ANSWER: If I recall correctly, the route between the Chicago Passenger Terminal and Milwaukee Union Station on 4/30/71 was double-track, run with the current of traffic. Today north of Kenosha it's substantially all single track, "dark" railroad (no block signals). What was the timing from CHI - MKE on C&NW best and at Amtrak day? How much improvement will the soon to happen UP upgrading of this line have on speeds? Is there much push to have this as a second route to MKE?
CSSHEGEWISCH: C&NW's suburban service on the North Line always ended at Kenosha. Everything north of there was considered intercity service even though it was shown in North Line timetables and was discontinued on April 30, 1971.
ANSWER: If I recall correctly, the route between the Chicago Passenger Terminal and Milwaukee Union Station on 4/30/71 was double-track, run with the current of traffic. Today north of Kenosha it's substantially all single track, "dark" railroad (no block signals).
COMMENT: I have read where the State of Wisconsin would like to establish communter rail service connecting Kenosha, Racine and Milwaukee. The U.P. Kenosha Subdivision, given its proximity to population centers, would be the logical choice.
Bob-Fryml blue streak 1: CSSHEGEWISCH: C&NW's suburban service on the North Line always ended at Kenosha. Everything north of there was considered intercity service even though it was shown in North Line timetables and was discontinued on April 30, 1971. Was and is this a CTC single track line? ANSWER: If I recall correctly, the route between the Chicago Passenger Terminal and Milwaukee Union Station on 4/30/71 was double-track/automatic block signal, run with the current of traffic. Today north of Kenosha it's substantially all single track, "dark" railroad (no block signals). What was the timing from CHI - MKE on C&NW best and at Amtrak day? How much improvement will the soon to happen UP upgrading of this line have on speeds? Is there much push to have this as a second route to MKE? COMMENT: I have read where the State of Wisconsin would like to establish communter rail service connecting Kenosha, Racine and Milwaukee. The U.P. Kenosha Subdivision, given its proximity to population centers, would be the logical choice.
blue streak 1: CSSHEGEWISCH: C&NW's suburban service on the North Line always ended at Kenosha. Everything north of there was considered intercity service even though it was shown in North Line timetables and was discontinued on April 30, 1971. Was and is this a CTC single track line? ANSWER: If I recall correctly, the route between the Chicago Passenger Terminal and Milwaukee Union Station on 4/30/71 was double-track/automatic block signal, run with the current of traffic. Today north of Kenosha it's substantially all single track, "dark" railroad (no block signals). What was the timing from CHI - MKE on C&NW best and at Amtrak day? How much improvement will the soon to happen UP upgrading of this line have on speeds? Is there much push to have this as a second route to MKE?
ANSWER: If I recall correctly, the route between the Chicago Passenger Terminal and Milwaukee Union Station on 4/30/71 was double-track/automatic block signal, run with the current of traffic. Today north of Kenosha it's substantially all single track, "dark" railroad (no block signals).
blue streak 1 Was and is this a CTC single track line? What was the timing from CHI - MKE on C&NW best and at Amtrak day?
1. ATS Double track with a parallel freight-only line.
2. Looking at several old timetables, it appears the best time on the C&NW (in 1949!!) was 75 minutes for the 85 mile run, with only one stop in Evanston, avg speed 68 mph.
Actually, It's not completely double tracked past Kenosha . that'd be the big cost of it all. It'd be hard to double the track in Milwaukee with the highway right next to ya. However, with hard work, lots of money, and investing that money wisely, it could be done.
Used to be double-track, so i would think the RoW could still handle double-track. However, I see what you mean in Milwaukee.
Biggest problem I see in restoring service is getting the political will to fund the service. Personally, the ex-C&NW route makes more sense to me because it serves more communities. Amtrak goes through Glenview and Sturtevant, the latter being mostly populated by cows. Okay, I'm kidding if only slightly, but the larger populations live closer to Lake Michigan. A few years back, many of the communities were willing to kick in money for the service, but the county manager for Kenosha balked at it and no wonder. He got his service for free. One day it may happen, but one of the problems is in equipment. Use Metra cars and locos? Gotta have their permission. The only reason trains go to Kenosha is because there are yard facilities here. If they had a yard in Winthrop Harbor, I guarantee no Metra train would turn a wheel in Wisconsin. FWIW, I work as an engineer on one of the Kenosha scoots. I'd like to see restoration of service to Milwaukee, but I'm not holding my breath.
uphogger Biggest problem I see in restoring service is getting the political will to fund the service. Personally, the ex-C&NW route makes more sense to me because it serves more communities. Amtrak goes through Glenview and Sturtevant, the latter being mostly populated by cows. Okay, I'm kidding if only slightly, but the larger populations live closer to Lake Michigan. A few years back, many of the communities were willing to kick in money for the service, but the county manager for Kenosha balked at it and no wonder. He got his service for free. One day it may happen, but one of the problems is in equipment. Use Metra cars and locos? Gotta have their permission. The only reason trains go to Kenosha is because there are yard facilities here. If they had a yard in Winthrop Harbor, I guarantee no Metra train would turn a wheel in Wisconsin. FWIW, I work as an engineer on one of the Kenosha scoots. I'd like to see restoration of service to Milwaukee, but I'm not holding my breath.
The threshold question I would have about using the CNW line for a Milwaukee-Chicago service is how much demand would there actually be for such a service. Metra commuter trains already operate from Kenosha to Chicago over CNW and Amtrak runs from Milwaukee to Chicago (over the CP, which is probably a better route for passengers traveling between the two end points). That leaves only Racine as a new source for Chicago traffic, but it would be such a long trip that it's doubtful it would be used much as a commuter route (besides, anyone in Racine interested in taking a commuter train to Chicago can easity drive a few miles to Kenosha and catch one). The State of Wisconsin apparently believes (or, at least, believed until the last election) that there is sufficient demand for a commuter rail between Kenosha and Milwaukee to warrant such a service. I find this pretty questionable - downtown Milwuakee is not nearly the commercial and business center that Chicago is. If someone is traveling from Racine or Kenosha to a location in the Milwaukee area that's outside the central business district, driving would be a far superior option.
Assuming, however, that service were instituted over the CNW line north of Milwaukee, the question is what it would look like. To my mind, the best option would be for Wisconsin to acquire Metra compatible equipment and pool that equipment with Metra for a through Milwaukee-Chicago service, perhaps with some additional express services south of Kenosha to make the trip time more acceptable to passengers traveling between Wisconsin and Chicago That, however, isn't what Wisconsin has been planning to do. Their idea is to acquire a small fleet of non-Metra compatible equipment for the Kenosha-Racine service (last I heard, it was DPU's), which would not run south of Kenosha. This seems to me to be the worst option. It eliminates any possibility of running a through service and requires the Wisconsin operator to maintain shops and spare parts inventory for a small number of cars, rather than farm out some of the work to Metra. The third option, of course, would be to institute an Amtrak service over the CNW route. However, as a previous post has pointed out, you can't access Union Station via this route, so it would likely be a non-starter for Amtrak. The lack of good access to Union Station was a major reason that Amtrak didn't save this route when it started operations in 1971.
Now for a little historical factoid. When Amtrak took over in 1971, there actually was a way for trains to get between the CNW north line and Union Station. It was via the CNW "Weber line" which, at the time, ran from a junction with the north line in Evanston, south through Mayfair and Cragin and connected with the Milwaukee Road. However, it would have been circuitous and slow. Amtrak obviously felt that Milwaukee Road route (now CP) was the superior route for their intercity trains. The Weber routing is no longer available, as all but a small piece of the route north of Mayfair has been abandoned and removed.
Well, let's get one thing straight: there is no C&NW anymore. It belongs to the Union Pacific. I agree with the idea that there should be some kind of through service, not an interchange at Kenosha between trains. I don't understand why there can't be some sort of lease agreement on Metra's equipment, but I'm not a company lawyer. The further scuttlebutt was that Wisconsin wanted some sort of contract operator to run it over UP's track, to which I say, "Over my dead body!" That's our track and our seniority district and I'll be damned if I want to share it with some scab outfit. That said, I know that if the service were available, people would use it. I've been doing this for over 15 years and I firmly believe they would.
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