Broken MARC electric motors

[blue streak 1]

For the past week MARC has notified passengers that several PENN line trains will be one or two cars short due to not enough "electric locomotives available". I assume that a diesel replacement loco cannot meet AMTRAK performance requirements from WASH - Baltimore with more than a maxumum amount of trailing weight (cars) . Also at present MARC does not have enough diesel locos to put two diesels on these trains since their new ones that have been delivered are still not accepted. One day MARC also stated that AMTRAK has not gotten the electric locos repaired.

Question: Does anyone know why AMTRAK repairs of these units are behind? Is AMTRAK's Wilmington overhaul facilities overloaded with AMTRAK work? Or are there other reasons?

[daveklepper]

Don't these locomotives use motors built in Sweden?   Amtrak, MARC and NJT?   That is where the supply difficulty might be.   Possibly other parts as well.

[blue streak 1]

blue streak 1

Question: Does anyone know why AMTRAK repairs of these units are behind? Is AMTRAK's Wilmington overhaul facilities overloaded with AMTRAK work? Or are there other reasons?

Now we find out MARC has 6 out of 10 motors out of service.  They have not admitted to their public that this was the case only announcing that their Penn line trains would be 1 or 2 cars short. It took the Baltimore Sun newspaper to sniff out this problem. Again I ask the question. Why are 6 motors out of service??  I suspect that the new Diesel Locomotives that are not accepted will be blamed but that is bureaucratic nonsense.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

There are other questions;

1. Why did MARC allow so many elelctric locomotives to be bad ordered at once?

2. Why does MARC have to depend on Amtrak's Wilmington facility to repair or overhaul their electric locomotives? Who repairs or overhauls MARC's diesel locomotives?

3. The HHP 8's are relatively new, so why are so many of them out of service? 

[aegrotatio]

This is a replay of a problem in 2005 and 2008.  Then the failures were in the new batch of units and Hoover (the director) indicated heat may have been a factor.  Finally, Amtrak's HHP-8 engines were experiencing similar failures in 2005--but not today in 2009.

Also, to answer another question, Amtrak is contracted to maintain and support the engines used on the Penn Line.  It makes sense since these MARC units only run on the Northeast Corridor and are very similar, if not identical, to Amtrak's version.  Furthermore, Amtrak also operates these trains under contract.  It's somewhat an Amtrak line with the Maryland DOT brand on it using Maryland money.

Here is an old article from 2005:

http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=14237

And here is a newer one from 2008:

http://wjz.com/local/MARC.train.2.806355.html

 I am not aware of any media about this year's problems.  Let's hope we know soon.

 

 

[aegrotatio]

 The current Trains Magazine Newswire mentions that 6 out of 10 electrics are out of service on the Penn Line but the article seems to confuse that problem with the separate, unrelated problem with delayed acceptance of new diesel engines (which don't run on the Penn Line).

 

[blue streak 1]

aegrotatio

new diesel engines (which don't run on the Penn Line).

 

Actualy diesels do operate on the Penn Line! The problem with the motors out of service is that they could haul more pass cars and maintain a certain speed. Using diesels reduces the train length causing crowding and the unavailability of the new diesels prevents consists of  two locomotives on the rush hour trains to get the required train length for number of passengers.

A source told me third hand that the motors not being fixed comes from MARC not contracting their motors probably because MARC is short of funds ?? Anyone know??

[blue streak 1]

To document the shortage of electric motors: Marc issued the following advisory today!!

 

Attention, Penn Line Passengers--

Due to a shortage of electric locomotives, the following trains will be operating with one car less than usual:

This afternoon--train 436 (5:34pm departure from Washington), and train 544 (9:00pm departure from Washington).



MARC regrets the inconvenience.

September 28, 2009 3:47 PM

[aegrotatio]

 It must be very interesting to see the employee timetable for 40-year-old diesels that are temporarily running on the Penn Line if this is believable.  I still think the two problems are confused, and I am curious to see if diesels are *really* running on the MARC Penn Line.  They must cause havoc for through trains and others that can handle the speeds required (since Penn Line is on the Northeast Corridor where Acela and other 125+ mph trains run).  I am skeptical about that but since I don't commute on MARC Penn Line I will defer my opinion until we get the real facts.

 

[daveklepper]

Possibly they are leasing Amtrak power to the extent possible.

[blue streak 1]

aegrotatio

I still think the two problems are confused, and I am curious to see if diesels are *really* running on the MARC Penn Line

 Aero: Last time I had business in BAL (4 yrs ago)  took an off peak Penn line diesel pushed train to WASH. Had 6 cars. Returned on a electric motor train of 10 cars it appeared to run much faster and accelerated faster. Time before had a 8? car push to Wash and it accelerated slow. If MARC had 2 diesels on the rush hour trains then maybe they could accelerate quicker. The diesels are not temporary except for the rush hour trains. I'll look at schedules and try to figure required amount of motive power. 

[blue streak 1]

A check of the schedule requires 4 train sets for the Perryville trains - all operate with motors and have many cars.

The regular trains that terminate in BAL requires 5 train sets but appears 4 would cover rush hour. So that requires 8 motors for those trips and with 2 in for maintenance.

That leaves one round trip always needing a locomotive

[aegrotatio]

 So much for railfanning MARC this year.

I wanted to see what it's like to ride the fastest commuter rail line in America.

 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

aegrotatio

 So much for railfanning MARC this year.

I wanted to see what it's like to ride the fastest commuter rail line in America.

NJ Transit may well have the fastest commuter trains on its Northeast Corridor line between New York and Trenton.

[petitnj]

 ONE FEWER CAR THAN USUAL!

 fewer for countable things. And yes, Walmart's express lane has it wrong. 

[daveklepper]

Yes, NJT has the fastest commuter trains in North America.   Rush hour Trenton expresses that run non-stop between Princeton Junction and Newark.   (Or did?)    I assume they still are allowed 100mph.   Possibly the LIRR is in second place, pretty fast between Harold Tower and Jamaica on an express, and during rush hour, expresses on the Babylon line east of Jamaica.   Fastest diesels may be SF Penninsular rush hour expresses.   Metro North is no slouch either, but the Harlem Division expresses probably are the fastest, since both the New Haven and Hudson lines have curves with speed restrictions.

[oltmannd]

daveklepper

Yes, NJT has the fastest commuter trains in North America.   Rush hour Trenton expresses that run non-stop between Princeton Junction and Newark.   (Or did?)    I assume they still are allowed 100mph.   Possibly the LIRR is in second place, pretty fast between Harold Tower and Jamaica on an express, and during rush hour, expresses on the Babylon line east of Jamaica.   Fastest diesels may be SF Penninsular rush hour expresses.   Metro North is no slouch either, but the Harlem Division expresses probably are the fastest, since both the New Haven and Hudson lines have curves with speed restrictions

I'm assuming maximum authorized speed is what we're talking about? I have some hazy recollection that NJT's NEC trains are allowed 100, but MARCs are allowed 125. The LIRR used to allow electrics 80 mph and diesel hauled trains 65 mph, but practice was quite different. ;-) Don't know what it is now. The SEPTA Marcus Hook express I used to take home from work 30 years ago used to manage the low 90s through Ridley Park with the usual four Silverliner IVs, but would just tickle 100 on the indicator with Siverliner IIs and IIIs on the rare days we had them. I remember thinking at the time that it this was likely one of the fastest commuter trains in North America at the time.

[daveklepper]

MARC's may be allowed 125mph (AEM-7 and trail coaches, phs-pull?) but someone should check schedules, mileages, and running time.   Top speed on MARC might be highest, but scheduled speed would probalby show Princeton - Newark nonstops highest.

Does MARC show 125 for both pull and push?

[oltmannd]

It doesn't appear to me that the NB Penn Line schedules are materially different than the SB. At least one train is scheduled for the 11 miles from Aberdeen to Edgewood in 7 miles. That's 94 mph. The PJ to Newark Express trains on NJT run 34 to 36 minutes for 38 miles or 67 mph. I suspect there is padding in the NJT schedule but none in the 7 min MARC schedule.

[blue streak 1]

oltmannd

It doesn't appear to me that the NB Penn Line schedules are materially different than the SB. At least one train is scheduled for the 11 miles from Aberdeen to Edgewood in 7 miles. That's 94 mph. The PJ to Newark Express trains on NJT run 34 to 36 minutes for 38 miles or 67 mph. I suspect there is padding in the NJT schedule but none in the 7 min MARC schedule.

Don:  Went to AMTRAK's summer 2008 timetable.

 FWIW the only AMTRAK Regional times I could find from Aberdeen - Baltimore were weekday rush hour went from 24 minutes to 28min with one 37 (actually worse than MARC) minutes. Weekends times were 22 - 24 Minutes.

Northbound 22 - 24 minutes. So with MARC stopping 2 additional stations it may be the MARC coaches are rated 125 MPH. Hard to tell. Also the note that MARC trains may leave stations north of BAL northbound up to 5 minutes early may mean the 125 rating??   

 

[daveklepper]

34 minutes for 38 miles is of course 69 mph, but that still isn't 94 mph.   Looks like you are correct and I am mistaken.   I had forgotton about the speed restriction through the Elizabeth curve and through the interlocking approaching Newark.   There may be others, also.  Possibly Monmouth Junction.

[aegrotatio]

 I was talking about maximum speed.  MARC runs 125 mph as its top speed both by design and in between some stations.  It of course will vary.  I believe the faster parts are nearer to BWI than they are to DC.

Me, I'll wait until they fully deploy the repaired AEM-7 motors.  My GPS unit might have some observations. 

I'd also like to know how they fixed the problem, and what exactly the problem was with the very young HHP-8 motors, too, since various news reports stated that they were affected as well.

 

[aegrotatio]

Further clarification: MARC *is* the fastest commuter railroad in North America.    Raw speed *and* average speed.

Even Fred agrees with me. DC to Baltimore in 31 minutes.  Top speed 125 MPH.  Average speed 78 MPH.  MARC train 406 on the Penn Line.  I look forward to help steering this train with my stomach muscles soon.

 Fred saw it for himself in his blog:

http://cs.trains.com/trccs/blogs/trains-talk/2010/03/10/the-commuter-train-that-keeps-up-with-acela.aspx

[Warren J]

aegrotatio

 The current Trains Magazine Newswire mentions that 6 out of 10 electrics are out of service on the Penn Line but the article seems to confuse that problem with the separate, unrelated problem with delayed acceptance of new diesel engines (which don't run on the Penn Line).

 

Thanks for mentioning that the new diesels were not originally meant for service on the Penn Line! I ride on one of the two all-diesel lines that are part of the MARC system: Brunswick and Camden Lines run by CSX. Both lines still have locomotives that are approaching twenty years old and both lines share most equipment as the two lines actually run along different arms of the same CSX main through Washington DC. My train, the Blue Ridge Express (the former B&O name train to Martinsburg WV), has one of the new MP models and the results are amazing: quieter and definitely more reliable. Everyday, I see those sleek Penn Line double-decker trains packing the passengers through their doors and wished the CSX-operated lines had those fast locomotives and nicer cars (our train has recycled Metra gallery cars). Alas, we have had the last laugh this week as power failures in both the electric locomotives and the catenary system have created havoc on the high-speed NEC/Penn Line. A government inquiry is set to investigate why a sealed Penn Line train sat for two hours with no power (hence, no AC) in 90º+ heat. The passengers were advised to remove the emergency seals from the windows by police just to get ventilation until a backup train could arrive.

[aegrotatio]

Part of it is that they're going to find that releasing passengers onto the track bed is not allowed on the four (or is it six) track mainline that hosts Acela and Northeast Regionals up to and over 125 MPH.

The slow pokes can clog the CSX lines all they want.  CSX will just scedule them in.

The Penn Line, however, has a desperate requirement for speed and keeping Acela and Northeast Regional running.  This is part of the reason why MARC is run by Amtrak on that line.  They don't want MARC messing up Amtrak's crown jewel.

Anyone know if the broken locomotive was their HHP-8 or an AEM-7?  Amtrak is so disappointed with the HHP-8 they're not ordering any more even under AARA funds.

 

[aegrotatio]

WTOP Radio this morning claims that MARC is considering dragging along a diesel engine to power longer trains on the electrified Penn Line and to supposedly guard against failures like this.

I'm not sure who is doing the thinking here but this report sounds incorrect.

[UPReading85]

aegrotatio

MARC is considering dragging along a diesel engine to power longer trains on the electrified Penn Line and to supposedly guard against failures like this

 MARC has said they are considering running two units on all Penn Line trains in the wake of Monday's failure. With their current roster, the extra unit would have to be a diesel out of necessity and could only be maintained if fewer than six units are out of service at any given time. I agree that it is a half-baked idea but we must remember that MARC is a government entity and does things for political reasons, and not because they are rational.

This story has gotten significantly more play than it should have since it was a simple equipment failure plus miserable customer service on the part of the crew. The failing unit was HHP-8 #4913 and given the HHP's reputation, I'm not sure why anyone is surprised this happened.

I would love to know what they did with the set once they got it to move since with the windows pulled out it is condemnable under FRA regulations.

[daveklepper]

I would imagine they replaced the windows.   Possibly some of the glass scattered along the track was salvageable and reusable.

[BaltACD]

aegrotatio

Anyone know if the broken locomotive was their HHP-8 or an AEM-7?  Amtrak is so disappointed with the HHP-8 they're not ordering any more even under AARA funds.

 

Video clip on local news shows, the engine looked to be a HHP-8.

[BaltACD]

aegrotatio

Anyone know if the broken locomotive was their HHP-8 or an AEM-7?  Amtrak is so disappointed with the HHP-8 they're not ordering any more even under AARA funds.

 

Video clip on local news shows, the engine looked to be a HHP-8.