Is it feasable for Montreal Metro to do a conversion to steel wheels on steel rails from their current tire-in-guideway system? Does it make sense? I was also wondering if anyone had insight on Montreal Metro's regrets or satisfaction with the system.
Thanks!!
aegrotatio Is it feasable for Montreal Metro to do a conversion to steel wheels on steel rails from their current tire-in-guideway system? Does it make sense? I was also wondering if anyone had insight on Montreal Metro's regrets or satisfaction with the system. Thanks!!
It runs quite well as it is, and even if a pneumatic tire blows, the train won't derail.
Why would they want to give up what they have? Exceptionally smooth ride, less noise.
I don't know if these are actual regrets in Montreal's view, but reasons why rubber on concrete is not as good as steel on steel:
1. less energy efficient
2. gets very hot, even in Montreal's relatively cool summers. Maybe not such a problem in Montreal other times of the year. I imagine it's a problem in Mexico City.
3. poor adhesion in wet and snowy weather, consequently in Montreal winters it's not a good idea to have anything but tunnels. Maybe Montreal's gone to an extreme, perhaps the system could accomodate some non-tunnel running, but every time I've read a proposal for a surface or above surface Montreal route it's always mentioned to be conventional steel wheel. I do acknowledge that steel wheels don't do very well with wet leaves, but that hasn't seemed to be a show stopper in the rest of the galaxy.
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Al mentioned that if one tire blows the train won't derail, but if a steel wheel breaks the train might also not derail.
I also think I've heard that tires blow rather frequently. I don't remember why.
http://spacingmontreal.ca/2009/03/19/was-the-metro-a-mistake/
The result of this choice, is that the metro must stay underground.
http://world.nycsubway.org/canada/montreal/]
the main problem with having a system using rubber tires in lieu of having a traditional steel wheel to iron rail system is that it would have been almost impossible to operate rubber-tired cars in icy and/or snowy conditions. For this reason, construction of the métro in Montréal would have to be exclusively underground, unlike in Paris where adverse conditions of this sort are very rare and where rubber-tired lines do indeed run outdoors. For more information on the rubber-tired system, visit Marc Dufour's page describing the "Principle of the Rubber-tired Métro".
I used to live in Montreal & was there when Mayor Drapeau brought the Metro to Montreal. It was built just before Expo 67. The rock from the tunnels was used to extend Ste Helens island on the St.Lawrence Island off Montreal for Expo 67, which was a great Expo, I used to walk there practically every evening after work. Mayor Drapeau got the idea for the Metro after visiting the Paris subway which also uses rubber tires. Some of the tunnels in Montreal Metro are very hilly and the rubber tires give good adhesion. There are also the steel wheels and rails, but thewheels are about a half inch above the tires.. The rubber tires are lifted when making switching movements when going into storage areas, The tires are filled with hydrogen or nitrogen (not sure which). If a tire goes flat (which I never heard of) That individual tire can be lifted and train can continue to run, until it can be repaired. The Montreal Metro is very clean, If any graffeti appears, it will be remove that night or shortly thereafter, Very little crime, It is well used, especially in the winter when we have heavy snow storms. The tourists love it. Each station was designed by a different archetech with murals, etc. There is very little above ground workings, the only one I can think of is a short distance near Angiron Park. Look up Montreal Metro on Google for excelent write-up.
Thanks for the great links.
I mentioned Montreal's mayor Jean Drapeau bringing Expo 67 and the Metro subway to Montreal. He also had a stadium built (Jarry Park) and brought a major baseball leage to Montreal, The expo's Later on he had the summer olympics in Montreal, The Expo's baseball league then went to the olympic stadium for their games. We also had numerous festivals, and Grand Prix racing. Truly
Mayor Drapeau was a man of vision. However after he retired, his one regret was he got rid of Montreal street cars and said he should have followed Toronto's example of expanding the street car system.
Re the friction of the tires causing excess heat: In the early days of the Montreal Metro (circa 1966) there was heat build up inside the cars(They were not air conditioned). The windows in the doors allowing travel between the cars were removed and replaced with steel mesh to aid ventilation.
gardendance Montreal's relatively cool summers.
Montreal's relatively cool summers.
Have you ever been to Montreal in the summer? YMMV, but as a meteorologically-spoiled West Coast boy I've always found it way too hot when I've been there in the summer.
gardendance I do acknowledge that steel wheels don't do very well with wet leaves, but that hasn't seemed to be a show stopper in the rest of the galaxy.
I do acknowledge that steel wheels don't do very well with wet leaves, but that hasn't seemed to be a show stopper in the rest of the galaxy.
Except in the UK, where "leaves on the line" seems to be a standard excuse for late running any time from, say, late August until, oh, early March!
I'm from Philadelphia. My first trip to Montreal was July in the early 1980's. I don't remember it being particularly hot.
I don't know about cost, but this train was really quiet. My parents and I rode it in 1968 when it was fairly new and it was nothing like the noisy New York subway system. The ride seemed smoother too.
I have not heard any reports pro or con, but I don't know why they'd want to change it, unless it's cheaper to run on steel than use rubber tires. It connected to a huge underground shopping mall and we'd never seen anything like this either. We stayed at Queen Elizabeth Hotel, owned by CN at that time and it was located right over their station. The mall and subway system was linked by a passageway to the station and hotel, very convenient.
I do agree that Montreal, especially considering that the intermediate train line doors have mesh and no glass as cdnreader mentioned a few posts back, is very quiet.
Noise with steel wheel on steel rail, at least inside the car, does not necessarily have to be an issue though. I've been on a few decently quiet on the inside subways, Washington DC for example, and surface trains, NJTransit Riverline. Not necessarily every trip on every car, but many of them have been quiet.
And from the outside often on straight welded track it's difficult to hear conventional trains until they're very close.
I was speaking with a transplanted Montrealer about the extensive underground malls. His complaint was that there's no coat check system. To get to the subway to get to the mall one has to go out into the winter weather at some point, and so to walk the mall one still has to drag along one's parka.
Getting back to this thread's theme, converting from rubber to steel, it's probably not worth the cost of converting despite any cost savings of steel vs rubber.
One of the links I listed before said that Paris's early rubber tired lines were converted from steel, but later ones in Paris, and all the rubber tired installations in other cities, were built new with rubber, citing cost as the reason for no more steel to rubber conversions.
Inertia is very powerful.
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