Were the original European streetcars...

[al-in-chgo]

Were the original European streetcars "trolley cars"?  I mean, did they use a trolley pole to take power from the overhead wires to the vehicle itself?  I gather that streetcars were pretty much simultaneously developed in Germany and the USA around 1890, but I've only seen pictures of experimental models that used something looking like a trolley pole -- vintage photographs of actual, passenger-carrying systems that I've seen show streetcars using pantographs. 

[gardendance]

I thought I remembered photos and movies of Blackpool had poles, goo goo gave me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackpool_tramway

The tramway dates back to 1885 and is one of the oldest electric tramways in the world...

The system originally used the conduit system ...

early 1990s the boats were refurbished and received a number of new liveries, including Routemaster red, blue and yellow as well as a fictitious wartime livery.^[20] The fleet was converted from trolley pole to pantograph conductors. However, they were soon converted back, as passengers regularly complained at being showered by grease and dirt from the power line when it rained.^{[citation needed]}

Now are you going to quibble that Blackpool, England is not in continental Europe?

It seems to hint that pantographs are not compatible with passenger cleanliness on open roofed cars, so maybe I'm opening another can of worms, how many places with open roof cars, double deckers especially, used pantographs?

[al-in-chgo]

I appreciate the information, and I see nothing to quibble about.  - al

 

[harpwolf]

Good question.  Early European streetcars were rather fond of bow collectors.  Wikipedia would have usebelieve that this was due to patent conflicts with the American trolley pole. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_collector

European streetcars did not use pantographs - those were invented by the Key System in Oakland, California in 1903.

 

[daveklepper]

After the experimental period, during which all kinds of wierd current collection devices were tried, some European systems used trolley poles and some bow collectors.  I think some lines in Milan use trolley poles even today.   Most systems converted to one kind or another of pantograh.

[Old Foreigner]

From my personal experience dating back to 1930/1934 and later years I know that at least the big tramway systems of Berlin and Hamburg in Germany used trolley poles, not pantographs. I remember the special swoosh sound of the passing cars.

[al-in-chgo]

Nothing like personal experience!  Thank you for contributing.   -  a.s.

 

[Mario_v]

Also Lisbon's routes 12 and 28 use troley poles as a current collection device. I see it's trams everyday, and the wheel on the top of the trolley produces a very distinct high sound when going thru the wire. As far os all other lines are concerned, pantographs are used, and the remodelled cars have both a pantograph and a troley, in order to be used in all lines. Here are some videos.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YiHO5jZYY4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aij4sHpd7zM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9pvczSV9Vk

[Anonymous]

Until 1978, the year of closure of the last remaining streetcar line in Hamburg, trolley poles were used to pick up the current. May be the more expensive catenary system contributed to the final closure at a time, where most German cities heavily invested into revamping their public transport system.

By the way, trial runs have been conducted with a new sort of drive, similar to the maglev principle, but without the levitation. There is no need for expensive and hard-to-maintain catenary anylonger. Is this the resurrection of streetcars?

 

[al-in-chgo]

--- On Wed, 4/8/09, [e-mail] <[e-mail]> wrote:

From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Subject: (Trains.com Forums) New Message: Re: Euros used bow collectors
To: [e-mail]
Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 6:39 AM

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Re: Euros used bow collectors
By Mario_v in Transit

Also Lisbon's routes 12 and 28 use troley poles as a current collection device. I see it's trams everyday, and the wheel on the top of the trolley produces a very distinct high sound when going thru the wire. As far os all other lines are concerned, pantographs are used, and the remodelled cars have both a pantograph and a troley, in order to be used in all lines. Here are some videos.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YiHO5jZYY4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aij4sHpd7zM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9pvczSV9Vk

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So if I'm following all this correctly, it is not right to say that older N. American streetcars use a trolley pole while W. European ones use a pantograph or bow collector.  It is a mixture. 

Since no built-from-scratch LRT system here in the States that I know of for the past several decades has done without a pantrograph, I guess there must be some advantages to that type of collection?  But I will say that trolleys make the coolest twangy noise (a "distinct high sound") when they run over a joint.

[wjstix]

Technically the first streetcars didn't use trolley poles or pantagraphs....

 

[aricat]

I wish I could give you more information. Continnental Europe did use trolley cars extensively. I remember seeing trolley cars operate in Zurich, Innsbruk Austria, Vienna,and Copenhagen,I believe they all used overhead wires.The only trolley system in the United Kingdom still in operation in 1959 was the Glasgow system. They used double-deck trolleys and were similair to the trolleys in Hong Kong which I saw in 1965. Continnetal trolleys were all single deck any very small by US or British Standards and I never saw any single unit operation. They always had at least two or more cars.

[gardendance]

aricat, in 1959 Blackpool, England, United Kingdom, had streetcars and still does today.

And as I mentioned in my prior post, uses trolley poles, after an experiment with pantographs or bow collectors proved unpopular on their open roofed cars.

[aricat]

I stand corrected. I was under the mistaken belief that Glasgow had the last tram system in UK. What is wonderful about these forums is that we can learn something new every day; will eat humble pie for lunch. Aricat

[54light15]

I was on the island of Mallorca in the Mediterannean in the 1970s. There they have an electric railway between the towns of Palma and Soller. This is not really a "trolley" car, but a train powered by an electric locomotive pulling a baggage car and maybe four passenger cars, all made out of varnished wood. This train was powered by trolley poles, not pantographs. It was not a relic by any means, the baggage car carried sacks of mail and boxes of freight. Everything was in excellent conditon and reminded me of a well cared for mahogany Chris-Craft and who doesn't love those! Open platform cars,meter gauge? and it was very popular. In the town of Soller was a connecting line that was two open-bench cars that were trolley powered and this line took you down to the harbour. There is a comprehensive narrow gauge line covering Mallorca but this is mainly diesel powered rail cars. My memory can be rusty, but there were NO pantographs! Trolley pole powered, similar to what we have here in Toronto.

  

[al-in-chgo]

Great description!  I was in Mallorca about 20 years ago and rode the train you spoke of.  -  al 

[NKP guy]

What about Paris?  I don't think I've ever seen pictures of wires over the streets; in fact, I'm not sure that I've ever seen photographs of any kinds of streetcars there.  I have seen horsecars...then buses.  Who knows anything about streetcars in Paris?

[54light15]

In the Hemingway memoir about Paris, "A Movable Feast," He mentions streetcars in Paris. I also understand that they had some that carried freight and the last lines were closed in the 1930s. I've never seen any pictures either.  

[Old Foreigner]

Paris - as other French cities - after decades without streetcars has them again now. Sorry, I have no pictures.

[daveklepper]

Center city Paris used the conduit system, like Manhattan, Washington-DC, and London.   A slot between the running rails with steel guide rails on each side edging the pavement, to power rails, one on each side of the slot, one positive and one ground return, a "plow", usually wood, carried on a underfloor slider in London but on a slider under  the bolster of one truck in the NY and Washington, with contact shoes on each side and flexible cables running to the electric circuits of the car.  I don't know the exact arrangement in Paris.   Where cars switched from overhead to conduit in Washington and NY there were plow pits (been in two), where men removed the plows from outbound cars and replaced them on inibound cars.  In Washington pole raising and lowering was done electrically by control of the motorman, while NY required another man as a pole puller or the motorman would do it  manually.   In London, the conduit slots of both the inbound and outbound tracks crossed the inner running rails and merged.   An outbound car would coast through the spot, and the plow at speed would coast along the slot, leaving the side of the outbound car, and stacking up in the end slot common to both outbound and inbound.  A plow runner employee would guide the first plow in line (last out first in) to the side of an inbound car, give it a final push, and the plow would be seated in the underfloor carrier.   I don't know what they did in Paris.   Most lines in Washington used both wire and conduit.   Exceptions were 14th St. and Calvert Bridge (both major lines with downtown branches over tracks shared  with other routes), all counduit, and the Beltsville-Branchville shuttle (one-car "dinky"), all wire.  In New York, nearly all Manhattan lines were all conduit .  Exceptions were Willis Avenue and 149th Street crosstown, both having a good portion of mileage in The Bronx, and the strange 145thSt-Broadway line which used wire just to cross Lenox Avenue to a cutback crossover.  Most London lines used both, and London had the only conduit streetcar subway, remodeled for double-deck cars!.  London actually built new conduit track after WWII for the South Bank cultural center project before abandoning the complete system.  Washington built new conduit track during WWII to reach new government buildings.

The Washington line trains of the Washington Baltimore and Annapolis interurban were equipped for counduit operaton and used conduit on the Benning line to reach their downtown terminal.