Will "BRT" begin the end of new "LRT" development?

[JT22CW]

In case after case when relatively modern streetcars were pulled of the streets and replaced by buses, patronage fell, and I saw this happen with the Broadway-42nd Street line in Manhattan at age 14 at the end of 1946.

Are you making a causality mistake? Are you sure that the patronage drop was a result of the bustitution, or was it due to postwar automobile ownership increase and flight to suburbia? What ridership changes did other lines in New York City and the nation experience? What were the population and employment changes at the time?

I doubt he's making a "causality mistake", as you term it.  If the automobile had such a profound influence, it would have been reflected in all forms of public transportation and not one mode (street transportation whether rail or bus).  There was a marked difference between the streetcar usage and the usage of the buses that replaced them (of course, it was no help that the buses had lower passenger capacity than the streetcars, but it was also the case that the buses did not have the same kind of "dedicated" space that the streetcars previously commanded; drivers like to keep out of the streetcars' way even when the lanes are shared, and that makes them more effective as a street-bound form of public transportation, because car drivers just don't respect buses, especially when they're trying to pull back into traffic from a stop at a curb).

And what's making you relate "automobile ownership" with "flight to suburbia" in particular?  That sounds more to me like a matter related to commuter rail and interurban systems.

[Eltraino4]

  If the Pittsburgh Carniege Busway were deemed to be a failure the taxpaers would not be stuck with a right of way that they cant use. The Busway mearly would turn into a all purpose road...Some HOV lanes have been discontinued and opened to traffic....Which begs the question of adding a 2 lane limited acces highway vs 2 tracks of light rail?

[gardendance]

If the automobile had such a profound influence, it would have been reflected in all forms of public transportation and not one mode (street transportation whether rail or bus).

There was a marked difference between the streetcar usage and the usage of the buses that replaced them

I've always thought that the automobile DID have a deep influence on all forms of public transportation. I also thought that all forms of public transportation declined after World War 2, and that the automobile ascended. Maybe in recent times we've seen public transit grow, but I thought we also saw automobile mileage grow, and I'm pretty sure it's still the dominant mode, but was not dominant before WWII.

I'm not convinced that the difference between the streetcar use and the replacement bus use was just because of the bustitution. If the streetcar line had been experiencing steady or rising ridership, and management changed to buses for other reasons, and then ridership dropped, that would be one thing. Do you have figures to back that scenario? If however, as I suspect is the case, the line or system or city was experiencing declinining ridership which continued after bustitution, then I'd tend to conclude that it wasn't the change to buses that caused the decline. I do grant I have no statisitics to support my suspicion.

One example: Cleveland Shaker Heights light rail lines underwent major rebuild and new vehicle procurement in the early 1980's, yet still ridership dropped. However Cleveland's population also dropped, and by a larger percentage than the light rail ridership. This would tend to deflate the argument that the light rail improvements were wasted, since all other things being equal the light rail percentage drop should have been close to the population drop, and one could argue that the improvements prevented greater ridership drop. Also they were investment should the region's population rebound, which apparently is the case since Cleveland has built a 3rd (Lakefront) light rail line.

And what's making you relate "automobile ownership" with "flight to suburbia" in particular?  That sounds more to me like a matter related to commuter rail and interurban systems.

Shucks, that's just another of my beliefs. I'm pretty sure automobiles and the trend for big city populations to migrate to the suburbs are related. Didn't that really start to take off post WWII, and continue relatively unabated to this day, regardless of the availability of commuter rail and interurban systems? In fact I'm pretty sure the interurban era was over by the end of WWII, or at least by the 1960's, at which point the only remnants were the Chicago South Shore and South Bend and Philadelphia's Red Arrow Lines. And commuter rail lines in this country tended to dry up after WWII, only to rebound in recent decades.

[Phoebe Vet]

But does 1 heavy bus with 40 passengers damage a roadway more or less than 40 cars with 1 passenger?

 

Which would be harder on your legs and your ladder?

Carrying 10 bundles of shingles up to your roof one at a time, or carrying 10 bundles of shingles at the same time?

[Eltraino4]

Fed Funds are being misused for BRT projects that really road improvement projects that give no real avatages to buses to go faster then the cars like a deadicated right of way

[gardendance]

Which would be harder on your legs and your ladder?

Carrying 10 bundles of shingles up to your roof one at a time, or carrying 10 bundles of shingles at the same time?

I thought the issue pertained to a heavy bus vs a light automobile. Shouldn't the comparison then be you carrying 10 bundles up to the roof at the same vs having your wife or preteen child carrying them 1 at a time? Or the efficiency professor admonishing the class to be careful "I told my wife how to improve housework, now what she used to take 15 minutes to accomplish I now complete in only 10 minutes"

Fed Funds are being misused for BRT projects that really road improvement projects that give no real avatages to buses to go faster then the cars like a deadicated right of way

I agree that it is possible to spend on bus improvements, only to have those advantages trickle down to automobile improvements, something that's harder to do with rail improvements. Something I've mentioned before, and I hope you'll forgive me for beating a dead horse, it is possible to design bus rapid transit as an incremental improvement that could be converted to rail rapid transit.

This is similar to one of the arguments for light rail, that properly designed light rail can be upgraded to heavy rail, therefore build now on the cheap, whether bus or rail, and allow provision for future mode change.

Certainly we've seen the reverse, downgrading rail lines to bus. One or two exceptions, for example Pittsbughs east busway which uses 2 of the former 4 Pennsylvania Railroad-Conrail tracks, most others are instances having been where the rail disappeared in favor of regular bus on our nation's highways.

[paulsafety]

Article on topic from Chicago Tribune:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/green/chi-express-busjul11,0,2044717.story

"At the CTA, whose buses average a snail-like 9 m.p.h., bus rapid transit has been earmarked as the No. 1 near-term priority. Armed with a $153 million federal grant, the CTA plans to test bus-only lanes on four Chicago routes-portions of Chicago Avenue, Halsted Street, 79th Street and Jeffery Boulevard-starting mid-year 2009. The project would start with about 10 miles of bus-only lanes and eventually expand to more than 100 miles.

CTA buses will also be equipped with transponders so buses can breeze through intersections on green lights. And much like Cleveland, bus stops will be spaced farther apart-about a quarter-mile-to help cut travel times.

In the Chicago area, big-ticket rail projects-ranging from the CTA's proposed Circle Line stretching around the city to Metra's suburb-to-suburb STAR Line-would cost billions of dollars to build. Currently, no funding has been identified.

If Chicago's upcoming experiment pays off, it's possible that bus rapid transit networks, costing as little as one-fifth the price of heavy rail projects, would make a more viable alternative.

[Eltraino4]

  Chicago it might work because Chicago has wider streets and more room to play with...However 156,000,000 sounds like a lot of money when all you need is a line painting truck.... Again Transit money being used as stealth highway money...However keeping traffic out of those lanes will require jersey barriers knowing that drivers will declare war on the bues for taking "there" lanes from them