This is the flip side of asking for the oldest continuous-service trolley line in America.
What is the longest gap between a community's closing its last trolley (streetcar) line and instituting its first LRT (light rail) line? My nomination, half WAG half good luck is Charlotte, NC: Last streetcar 1938; first LRT 2007. Sixty-nine years!
There are some rules: Both systems have to be powered by some form of overhead electricity. Whether one is AC the other DC, doesn't matter, whether one is electrified wire and the other suspended catenary, doesn't matter.
Nor does it matter if the ROW of any of the former trolley lines overlaps any new LRT line(s) or not.
Just looking for an idea of that biggest gap that a community went "off the wires," so to speak, in its municipal, passenger-carrying overhead-wire-powered conveyances between one era and the other.
Infinity is not an answer. There has to be overhead power on both sides of the timeline wth a gap in between. Nor is continuous service an issue; not only has that been addressed in a different thread, the amount of the gap would be zero. Zero won't win. Plans are always nice to hear about, though.
I would prefer not to include interurbans but will do so grudgingly only if they got their power from overhead (as opposed to a shoe, diesel-electric light rail, whatever).
Yes, I know I'm being arbitrary but so are people who try to torture the definition of what I'm asking about with legalisms and sideshows.
But there are so many good and knowledgeable people here and abouts that I think this could be a very interesting post, possibly both an interesting and short-lived one, which of course is OK by me.
Yours in traction (sorry), Al.
Al:
Where would you put this in your research?
It is Charlotte's #85 trolley. The actual last trolley to run. The one used in the ceremony in 1938 bidding goodby to the trolleys.
You see it here, running in Charlotte not long before the light rail was up and running, pushing a generator because the overhead wires were not yet available.
It also ran for a couple of years on abandoned N&S tracks funded by private donations.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I should have remembered about the re-institution of Charlotte's antique trolleys. If they ran off any kind of energized overhead wire, that would count. If they carried their own power or were towed, that wouldn't.
If those cars do count, then the gap would be shorter: 1938 to the institution of the trolleys (which I have also read referred to as "downtown trolleys)," so 1938 to - what - late 1990s? I would consider that service to be seamless when going over to the new LYNX because there was IIRC very little time the old-time trolleys stopped running and LYNX started.
The trolleys are runnning again in addition to the light rail.
If you look at that picture of old #85 pulling the generator you will see the overhead wires are there, they were just not yet electrified. Now they are and the trolleys use them.
Old #85 is a restored museum piece and is only used occasionally. CATS has 3 replica trolleys that are in regular service.
The 2030 plan is going to run trolleys uptown in addition to the light rail, commuter rail, enhanced bus service, and possibly BRT. There is a new multimodal station planned that will bring Amtrak and Greyhound to city center as well.
Paul:
You forgot Charlotte, NC.
Original trolleys 05/18/1891 to 03/14/1938 (Duke Power)
Trolley returned 08/30/1996 (non profit private)
Light rail in service 11/24/2007 (Lynx Blue Line, Charlotte Area Transit)
Paul, that was a very nice thing you did. It is great having all the systems laid out like that. Please accept my thanks for a job well done. - a.s.
Phoebe Vet wrote: Paul:You forgot Charlotte, NC.Original trolleys 05/18/1891 to 03/14/1938 (Duke Power)Trolley returned 08/30/1996 (non profit private)Light rail in service 11/24/2007 (Lynx Blue Line, Charlotte Area Transit)
Nope, I didn't forget, I just didn't want to be redundant (already covered in this thread) -- it's very much on my spreadsheet, along with several other systems that i'm still researching.
My question to you is this -- should we calculate the gap based on the non-profit trolley, or on the Light Rail Service? I'd go by the non-profit trolley myself, but....could argue about serving a public commerce need versus a "heritage" operation.
LYNX is very cool, and I'd appreciate it all the more if it actually went to the airport (where I'd board it in order to visit my client, DUKE Power. As it is, I rent a car for a business meeting downtown (very wasteful!)
al-in-chgo wrote: Paul, that was a very nice thing you did. It is great having all the systems laid out like that. Please accept my thanks for a job well done. - a.s.
You're very welcome. The research is for more than the gap analysis. I'm collecting as much information as possible -- cost to construct initial LRV system (and cost per mile), total system length, longest individual route, system "name" (marketing name), etc.
On separate worksheets, I'm building similar data on non-FRA compliant Rapid Transit (medium rail for lack of better term), and Bus Rapid Transit projects (in place, planned and funded).
It's interesting to see the data and it challenges assumptions I've made and surprises me in some cases. It's tough to find accurate data (ie. data that varies from source to source by a year or so, mileages, costs, etc.) I'm trying to verify data against published sources, transit agency web sites, newspaper articles, etc.
I enjoy the research -- its more entertaining than the odd game of "free cell" (cards) in my spare moments.
Paul
Oddly enough, even though the track upon which the Purple Line will eventually run goes right past the end of one runway at Charlotte Douglas Airport, there are no plans for the train to go that far ... EVER. They plan to connect the airport to the Multimodal station with a bus.
The logic totally escapes me.
The trolley, the restored Trolley #85, originally ran on abandoned N&S right of way, with an overhead wire. When they began improving the right of way and track for the light rail which was still several years in the future, they took down the wire and put up poles for the new cantanary. They, however, did not electrify it, so for a while the trolley ran pushing and pulling a generator. Now the electricity is on and both the trolleys and the light rail use it.
Phoebe Vet wrote: Oddly enough, even though the track upon which the Purple Line will eventually run goes right past the end of one runway at Charlotte Douglas Airport, there are no plans for the train to go that far ... EVER. They plan to connect the airport to the Multimodal station with a bus. The logic totally escapes me.
Some airports (or politicians or committee members or planners, etc.) don't want rail on the property. Perhaps the overhead wires will cause communication (radio) interference (doubt it), perhaps the shuttle bus operators, airport limo operators, taxi operators and rental car companies don't appreciate the threat of a one-seat, clean, cheap ride into downtown (naw, couldn't be that could it?)
Once the purple line is up and running, I'd consider taking the shuttle bus to the train, but it's sure less convenient (especially with bags). Still, consider the light rail connection with Amtrak in Baltimore -- a shuttle that runs every 15 minutes about a mile to the main route, but is specifically timed to arrive AFTER the trolley to downtown has already left the transfer station. Also, once you've ridden the shuttle once, you realize that even with luggage, you could have walked to the main line and caught the trolley you just missed! I think they've changed this arrangement since my last visit (one could hope).
Anyway, thanks for the update on LYNX and the heritage trolley, too!
Paul F.
I recently took that route. Amtrak from Charlotte to Baltimore, and light rail to Timonium to attend the train show.
Our light rail is MUCH nicer than theirs.
It is an odd system with 3 different lines all running primarily on the same track. The line from the airport is OK if you are going south, but we were going north, so we had to do that 100 yards and change trains thing.
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