High platform clearances

[timz]

I don't think you will find any eastbound passenger rush hour trains terminating at Newark Penn Station in 1939.

Or in any other year AFAIK until they closed Jersey City in 11/61. That one NY&LB diesel train did terminate at Newark for ... a year or two? after that.

(A second look reveals that the LV train that I showed leaving at 8:50 was actually terminating at Newark. Wonder whether it had changed engines? Wonder where it parked after Newark? If it's not going to NY, why not terminate back at the LV Newark station?) 

Also, a public 1939 Newark - Penn timetable would show fewer trains than we have counted.

Lessee-- you'd need Forms 72 and 38 and 12 and 55 and 56-- maybe you'd need Form 79-- and the LV and H&M timetables. That would cover all of them. And they'd all be in the Official Guide.

(But yeah, we like to use the employee timetable so we don't have to worry about some mail/express train that didn't appear in any public TT.)

Because none of the through trains from west of Harrisburg picked up passengers.  Neither did any Washington - NY trains or Clockers.  Their stops at Newark were discharge only.  Trains to Boston or other New England points picked up passenger only going to New Haven RR points or father north, with the single exception of the overnight Federal Express.  Most New York and Long Branch (Jersey Shore) trains did not pick up passengers for Jersey City or Penn Station, whichever terminal they used.

I'll check, but as I recall the timetable only showed a few trains as discharge-only at Newark. Far as I can see from the timetable even the Crescent carried shorts-- it was all-Pullman south of Washington but had coaches Washington-NY.

(According to the empl TT the Trail Blazer, Pittsburgher, Spirit of St Louis and all the LV trains were discharge-only at Newark-- no others between 0700 and 0900.) 

[daveklepper]

I am pretty sure the LV train ran through to Penn Station, and there can be errors in timetables.  If it did not, and if it really discharged all its passengers at Newark, then it must have run light to the Pennsy's Exchange Place JC terminal (and probably a passenger could talk his way into riding if he or she really cared.)   This would make sense if it did not change engines at Hunter Tower and ran with a steam locomotive to Newark.   The LV never advertized a connection to Jersey City, did not have a ticket office either at Exchange Place or at Hudson Terminal, which the Pennsylvania did have, although it did mention the PRR-H&M connecting service at Newark in its timetables, just as Amtrak and NJT do today.   The LV did have its own ticket window at Pennsylvania Station, NY.

Turning to "the gap."   In the New York area there were many locations where narrow equipment stopped at stations with high platforms for full-width cars.  The greatest number were on the BMT system, where open-platform "gate-car" ("BU") trains shared tracks with steel subway cars and/or with extensions side-sill "C-Type" rebuilt elevated cars.   This even included the Park Row, Manhattan, Brooklyn Bridge terminal!   Grant Avenue Station on Liberty Avenue is one station that saw open-platform BU's, the rebuilt C's, with sliding doors, and extension side-sills, and the steel lightweight articulated "multis".   Jamaica Avenue, the Culver Line, the last few stations on the West End LIne, the Stillwell Avenue terminal at Coney Island, all were examples at one time or another.   Also, the first LIRR mu's were narrow, basically the same as the first IRT steel cars with traps and steps and MCB couplers added.   These ran on the Atlantic Avenue Branch to Flatbush Avenue terminal in Brooklyn for many years in Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway service.  All these stations were also served by standard width-trains.

What follows is another correction.   The three trains I knew on the Lehigh were the Black Diamond, the John Wilkes, and the Asher Packer.   These were the three through trains to Buffalo, and I guess all three had a CN-GT connection to Toronto and Chicago, but I cannot claim any certainty on that.   But not far from Newark and Hunter Tower and Albene was a stop with "Junction" in its name, and all three trains each way were met by a doodlebug, a gas-electric or diesel-electric old-style rail car, for a trip to and from the named town or city.   Possibly in 1939 or even later, that car made a morning trip to Newark and simply reversed and ran back to the town, repeating the same process for commuters in the evening.  Many gas-electric and deisel-electri railcars could do this as easy as an electric mu.  The hint in the data is that the LV train is not named, whereas the PRR long distance trains are called out by name, and if the LV train were one of the through trains, possibly its name would show up on the list?

Also, my memory on the "discharge-only" character of some of the Newark stops may be clouded by what I observed later than 1939, particularly during WWII when trains were much more crowded, and possibly my memory is correct for this later period.

It would be of interest to compare 1939 with today during the same two hours at Newark.   Bet there are lot, lot more commuter trains and fewer long distance.

[al-in-chgo]

I am pretty sure the LV train ran through to Penn Station, and there can be errors in timetables.  If it did not, and if it really discharged all its passengers at Newark, then it must have run light to the Pennsy's Exchange Place JC terminal (and probably a passenger could talk his way into riding if he or she really cared.)   This would make sense if it did not change engines at Hunter Tower and ran with a steam locomotive to Newark.   The LV never advertized a connection to Jersey City, did not have a ticket office either at Exchange Place or at Hudson Terminal, which the Pennsylvania did have, although it did mention the PRR-H&M connecting service at Newark in its timetables, just as Amtrak and NJT do today.   The LV did have its own ticket window at Pennsylvania Station, NY.

Turning to "the gap."   In the New York area there were many locations where narrow equipment stopped at stations with high platforms for full-width cars.  The greatest number were on the BMT system, where open-platform "gate-car" ("BU") trains shared tracks with steel subway cars and/or with extensions side-sill "C-Type" rebuilt elevated cars.   This even included the Park Row, Manhattan, Brooklyn Bridge terminal!   Grant Avenue Station on Liberty Avenue is one station that saw open-platform BU's, the rebuilt C's, with sliding doors, and extension side-sills, and the steel lightweight articulated "multis".   Jamaica Avenue, the Culver Line, the last few stations on the West End LIne, the Stillwell Avenue terminal at Coney Island, all were examples at one time or another.   Also, the first LIRR mu's were narrow, basically the same as the first IRT steel cars with traps and steps and MCB couplers added.   These ran on the Atlantic Avenue Branch to Flatbush Avenue terminal in Brooklyn for many years in Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway service.  All these stations were also served by standard width-trains.

What follows is another correction.   The three trains I knew on the Lehigh were the Black Diamond, the John Wilkes, and the Asher Packer.   These were the three through trains to Buffalo, and I guess all three had a CN-GT connection to Toronto and Chicago, but I cannot claim any certainty on that.   But not far from Newark and Hunter Tower and Albene was a stop with "Junction" in its name, and all three trains each way were met by a doodlebug, a gas-electric or diesel-electric old-style rail car, for a trip to and from the named town or city.   Possibly in 1939 or even later, that car made a morning trip to Newark and simply reversed and ran back to the town, repeating the same process for commuters in the evening.  Many gas-electric and deisel-electri railcars could do this as easy as an electric mu.  The hint in the data is that the LV train is not named, whereas the PRR long distance trains are called out by name, and if the LV train were one of the through trains, possibly its name would show up on the list?

Also, my memory on the "discharge-only" character of some of the Newark stops may be clouded by what I observed later than 1939, particularly during WWII when trains were much more crowded, and possibly my memory is correct for this later period.

It would be of interest to compare 1939 with today during the same two hours at Newark.   Bet there are lot, lot more commuter trains and fewer long distance.

 

Along the lines of this, last summer I encountered online a very readable article about the Long Island Rail Road's ongoing attempts to "narrow the gap" between its passenger platforms (esp. the curvy ones, such as Syosset Station) and the newer type of trains.  (OT but why is it that, for example, Metroliner shells create such a gap when the older stuff didn't, assuming it didn't??).  Got to the site thru mta and then lirr.  By definition the piece did not discuss the NY subway or anything NJT or Metra-North, just LIRR, but I found it quite engaging. 

This may be OT and if it is, I can start a new thread:  Since you've got the number of trains into and out of pretty well pegged, I'm curious to know as to how much weekday traffic there was from Penn Sta/Newark into Penn Sta/Manhattan in 1939 -- was it more, less, or about the same as today, or for whatever year we have solid figures?  To my knowledge Amtrak does not allow travel between these two stations as a mutual origin or destination (gotta be a better way to say that!), and this IMHO would make Amtrak traffic easily excludable from the category of commuter traffic between the Newark Penn Station to NYC's.  Wouldn't that then leave by default today's NJT as the only commuter rail carrier between these two destinations?   (Not counting PATH, I guess.)  - a.s.

 

[timz]

Lehigh Valley had that gas-car-or-whatever-it-was local from South Plainfield, at the end-- maybe from Flemington Jct earlier-- but I don't think it ran to PRR Newark. Stayed on the LV to Jersey City, didn't it?

(OT but why is it that, for example, Metroliner shells create such a gap when the older stuff didn't, assuming it didn't??).

I'm guessing Metroliners and Comets and Arrows and M3s and M7s and MP54s are/were all an even ten feet wide at floor level. Where the door is on the carbody will affect the gap, and of course a door at the middle of an 85-ft car will have a maximum gap.

[al-in-chgo]

Lehigh Valley had that gas-car-or-whatever-it-was local from South Plainfield, at the end-- maybe from Flemington Jct earlier-- but I don't think it ran to PRR Newark. Stayed on the LV to Jersey City, didn't it?

(OT but why is it that, for example, Metroliner shells create such a gap when the older stuff didn't, assuming it didn't??).

I'm guessing Metroliners and Comets and Arrows and M3s and M7s and MP54s are/were all an even ten feet wide at floor level. Where the door is on the carbody will affect the gap, and of course a door at the middle of an 85-ft car will have a maximum gap.

Point well taken!   - a. s. 

[daveklepper]

The gas or diesel car I referred to was the Flemington - Flemington Junction shuttle that met all three of the through trains.  I had forgotton the name "Flemington", but I am certain that is the one I remember.   Conceivably, in 1939, it ran a trip into Newark for both rush hours.

You are correct that New Jersey Transit is the only legal passenger carrier between Penn Staiton Newark and Penn Station, New York.   Amtrak stations ushers at the stair entrances in both stations to check tickets, and will bar entry to the platform if you have an NJT NY-Newark ticket.   (Of course, railfans learn ways around this, but there is the possibility of being "caught" in any case.)

On one occasion while doing sound system work for PATH, I was very very late for a meeting with PATH, NJT, and Amtrak people at the Newark station, since a business apointment in NYC lasted longer than expected.  I used my savvy (bypassing the usher and the "legal stair") to get on the first train out, which was Amtrak, and the conductor listened to my little tail of woe and let me ride   ---for free!

[timz]

The gas or diesel car I referred to was the Flemington - Flemington Junction shuttle that met all three of the through trains.

In 1939 the gas-electric made ten weekday round trips betw Flemington and Flemington Jct-- so it didn't have time to run into Jersey City. They had to have another car for that.

You are correct that New Jersey Transit is the only legal passenger carrier between Penn Staiton Newark and Penn Station, New York.

Amtrak's web site lists fares Newark to NY Penn. No indication that they won't carry you.

The Lehigh Valley's Asa Packer is a mystery. It started in 1939, two daily-exc-Sunday round trips between Mauch Chunk and ... someplace ... because for the first year or two it didn't run to NY Penn like the other LV trains. There is a pic in that red-dust-jacket LV book of its 4-6-2 in Newark Penn-- the mystery is, where did it come from? Jersey City somewhere, but where? And if it runs Jersey City to Newark Penn it has to be on the PRR for at least part of that distance, but the PRR employee TT doesn't show it running east of Newark.

[daveklepper]

Amtrak NY-Newark?   This is a change, I think.   Can you check schedules of 12-13 years ago?

Or is it particular trains that I am thinking of, such as Metorliners, Acelas, and through trains to the west and south?   This would be shown in the current schedules.

The mystery about the LV train terminating in Newark and running to Jersey City for servicing can be explained by the train running as an extra with white flags displayed above the smokebox.  This would make sense, since it would permit the dispatcher to fit the train into a slot to do the least delay to trains carrying passengers.

[timz]

As you know, long-distance Amtraks are shown in the timetable as receive-only westbound at Newark and discharge-only eastbound. Maybe a few others as well-- but offhand I'm guessing you can board even Acelas at Newark and ride to NY. Don't recall any note to the contrary in old timetables, but I'll check.

Forgot to mention the 6/39 Official Guide shows the Asa Packer running to Jersey City-- in other words it apparently wasn't just going there for servicing. It says "L.V.R.R. Communipaw" which certainly doesn't sound like Exchange Place, but according to the station index in the back LV's Jersey City station was same as PRR's.

[al-in-chgo]

As you know, long-distance Amtraks are shown in the timetable as receive-only westbound at Newark and discharge-only eastbound. Maybe a few others as well-- but offhand I'm guessing you can board even Acelas at Newark and ride to NY. Don't recall any note to the contrary in old timetables, but I'll check.

Forgot to mention the 6/39 Official Guide shows the Asa Packer running to Jersey City-- in other words it apparently wasn't just going there for servicing. It says "L.V.R.R. Communipaw" which certainly doesn't sound like Exchange Place, but according to the station index in the back LV's Jersey City station was same as PRR's. 

 

You make an excellent point:  there is nothing to physically retrain an intended passenger from stepping onto an Amtrak train at Newark (Penna.) and getting off at (NYC) Penn Station, or vice-versa.  No physical barrier that might not accept a "wrong" ticket should that be the case, or no (as far as I know if) guard posted to look at people's tickets before they get access to the platform or the train itself.  >I could be quite wrong about that and regardless, I would allow that there's probably a right to do so built into the security system in the wake of post 9/11 rules and regs.<

However, here in 2008, all Amtrak trains require reservations, the only exceptions being those on the Chicago - Milwaukee run (Hiawatha Service).   Perhaps someone might want to spend nearly twice as much by taking Amtrak instead of NJT between the two stations (or more than two-and-a-half times as much with an off-peak RT).  That would certainly limit the numbers of people down to the uninformed and the few who will spend a good deal more money for a relatively trivial savings in time.  But is it even feasible?

My reading of the Amtrak System timetable is that if a NB passenger can only get off the train at Newark; he can't get on; and that same passenger SB on the return trip can't get off (depart train) at Newark if the train only permits getting on (receiving). If that is the case, then an Amtrak ticket clerk probably couldn't make reservation/print ticket between Newark Penn and NYC Penn alone; the computer would be programmed not to do it. (There might be a possibility for subterfuge; say, buying a ticket from Newark to New Haven, say, and getting off at Penn, but that's something only a very few people would even consider doing, a foamer like me desperate to squeeze in some more Amtrak-riding, perhaps.)  

There are enough people who feel entirely opposite to this that I shd probably double-check, though.** If I am indeed flat wrong I would think that nonetheless relatively few people would chose to take Amtrak over NJT from the same terminal to the same destination, though I do understand that any such people, short of an actual count, cannot be ruled out as statistically insignificant.

As to the airport I don't see such a muddle:  I do believe it's possible to ticket through from NYC/Penn to Newark airport.  The exceptions would be the l-d overnight trains that aren't considered part of ordinary Amtrak NEC boarding policies:  the Crescent and the Silver series come to mind.  They pick up going south and drop off heading north.

** We have a lot of NEC riders on these boards:  do any of you customarily take Amtrak from Newark to Penn Station or back? 

___________________________

BTW:  Who was Asa Packer, anyway ? 

 

[oltmannd]

Asa Packer was a Lehigh Valley rail baron.  Lived in what is now Jim Thrope, PA

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Packer

[timz]

Let's see if the link works--

http://tickets.amtrak.com/itd/amtrak/FareFinder?_tripType=OneWay&_origin=NYP&_depmonthyear=2008-02&_depday=20&_dephourmin=&_destination=Newark%2C+NJ+%28NWK%29&_retmonthyear=&_retday=&_rethourmin=&_adults=1&_children=0&_infants=0&_searchBy=schedule&x=23&y=8

I didn't try to actually buy a ticket, but anybody see any reason to think Amtrak won't sell me one? And if they sell me one they'll probably let me ride?

Might as well look at the PDF timetable for the NE Corridor, too. Lots of eastward trains shown "D" at Newark, lots of trains shown "L" (which receive passengers), and lots of trains with no apparent restiction. I didn't try to figure out if the eastward Acelas that receive passengers at Newark all continued to Boston-- maybe so. But numerous non-Acelas will apparently carry you from Newark to NY.

[daveklepper]

I still wonder if the situation today is the same as it was some 12-13 years ago regarding Amtrak between Newark and Penn Station, NYC.

The Asa Packer could carry passengers and still run as an extra in the employees timetable.  The PRR and LV would have every reason to do so.  Here is why:   Undoubtadly there is makeup time included in the schedule for arrival at Newark.   But if the train meets no delays and arrives at Hunter Tower early, the PRR would probably not wish to just hold it there for time, but rather to fit it in most conveniently in the parade to Newark Station.   And once there it has to unload and get out of town promptly to avoid tying up limited track space.  And passenger trains, trains in general on the PRR, never left ahead of schedule.   So having it an extra Newark - JC solves the problem.

Somebody with employees timetables can check, but I suspect all eastbounds Penn Station NYC to Sunnyside Yard, sharing tracks with the Hell Gate Bridge scheduled passenger trains and an occasional LIRR one retrouted from the LIRR tracks, are run as extras.

[timz]

I still wonder if the situation today is the same as it was some 12-13 years ago regarding Amtrak between Newark and Penn Station, NYC.

The 1996 public timetable has a few trains that originate at NY and are not receive-only at Newark. Maybe fewer than now, but I suspect there were always some. Has anyone found any evidence on paper that Amtrak isn't/wasn't allowed to carry passengers NY to Newark?

So having it an extra Newark - JC solves the problem.

Except that it wasn't an extra from Hunter to Newark.

Somebody with employees timetables can check, but I suspect all eastbounds Penn Station NYC to Sunnyside Yard, sharing tracks with the Hell Gate Bridge scheduled passenger trains and an occasional LIRR one retrouted from the LIRR tracks, are run as extras.

Don't think they're in the timetable, and don't think they ever were, but that doesn't mean they ran as extras. I'll see if the rulebook clarifies that-- probably not.

[daveklepper]

Thanks for the info!