Streetcars in the Twin Cities

[lattasnip9]

As I've grown up, my family and I have ridden on the Como-Harriet Streetcar line lots... and I mean lots.  Almost every weekend during the summer, we used to go down to Harriet, ride the streetcar and get ice cream at the bandshell afterwards.  It was a way of life for us!   As very little of you may know, there was a feasability study done by the City of Minneapolis within the past couple of years to see if reintroducing streetcars back to the cities would be a smart decision in the development of Twin Cities mass transit.  I can imagine what it would be like with the old trolleys running down 44th Street and France Ave again.  I know this is somewhat (maybe very) unrealistic but any thoughts if it will ever happen?

(the very thourough overview of the study is at http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/public-works/trans-plan/StreetcarDraftFinalReport.pdf)

 

[daveklepper]

Streetcars in th eform of Light Ral have returned, with the Hiawatha correidor a big success, construction soon to start on a corridor to St. Paul, and planning started for extensions, including restoration or a parallel line of the line you rode.

[lattasnip9]

Not exactly the streetcars I had in mind, the streetcars as in times like the early 1900's that were removed in the 50's.

[nokia3310]

The last streetcar in Twin Cityes ride in 1954. In the past I found an article about it, but now I can't find it :(

 

[CG9602]

Three books you should check out: "Twin Cities by Trolley: The Streetcar Era in Minneapolis and Saint Paul," by John Diers and Aaron Isaacs, "Minneapolis and The Age of Railways," by Don Hofsommer, and "The Electric Railways of Minnesota," by Russell Olson. These works contain information on the several lines in the Twin Cities and the surrounding area.

[aricat]

  In what I believe was the last night of streetcar operations in Minneapolis; my mother had taken my sister and I to downtown Minneapolis for supper at the Napoli restaurant and to see Pinnocho at the Orpheum theater in June 1954. We had taken a TCRT GM bus downtown on the Bryant-Johnson line which had streetcar service cease late in 1953. In June 1954, the Como-Harriet and Oak-Harriet cars were still running along with the Selby-Lake and Nicollet-2nd St lines.We boarded on Hennepin Avenue a standard TCRT streetcar which we would take from downtown to 50th and Penn South; for our return trip south Minneapolis. This was an Oak-Harriet car.It would run along Hennepin Avenue through Uptown to 31st St where it would turn west to access TCRT private right of way at Irving Avenue. Here the fun began. Even at 9, I felt very sad knowing this would be a ride never to be repeated. The TCRT motorman did not hold anything back as we raced through the private right on way.There were a lot of passengers that got off at 42nd St and Queen by Lake Harriet and at Linden Hills. We then turned South on Xerxes Avenue to 50th St and then east to Penn Avenue wye. There we transferred to the Bryant-Johnson bus for the ride home. Fifty-Three years later this ride is one of my most cherished railfan memories. I'm glad the Minnesota Transpotation Museum has preserved a portion of the Como-Harriet, but we really lost something the night the streetcars stopped running. The new LRT line, I love it; but if you want a truely memorable experience like the ride on Como-Harriet, go to Pittsburgh and take a ride out to Library Road. Aricat

[al-in-chgo]

As I've grown up, my family and I have ridden on the Como-Harriet Streetcar line lots... and I mean lots.  Almost every weekend during the summer, we used to go down to Harriet, ride the streetcar and get ice cream at the bandshell afterwards.  It was a way of life for us!   As very little of you may know, there was a feasability study done by the City of Minneapolis within the past couple of years to see if reintroducing streetcars back to the cities would be a smart decision in the development of Twin Cities mass transit.  I can imagine what it would be like with the old trolleys running down 44th Street and France Ave again.  I know this is somewhat (maybe very) unrealistic but any thoughts if it will ever happen?

(the very thourough overview of the study is at http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/public-works/trans-plan/StreetcarDraftFinalReport.pdf)

 

Under the right circumstances antique or revival trolleys can be (re-) instituted:  just look at PCC's in Kenosha WI and along the Embarcadero and Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco.  (An especially sweet move since years earlier, the populace had stopped the construction of an elevated freeway along Fisherman's Wharf.)  Vintage or new, it helps if the trolley (or Light Rail, as I think there is a kind of continuum between the two) follows a dedicated or lightly trafficked route and has a dedicated function to serve (in Kenosha, the trolleys travel from downtown to the Metra RR station -- end of the line for commuters). If it keeps people away from their cars, so much the better:  look at Dallas/ DART, which is fare-free downtown IIRC.  Even people who drove their cars downtown to park in a paid garage are happy about not having to take the car out multiple times if they can hop a DART trolley for free and ride a few blocks around the downtown area.

If in Minneapolis you have a situation where large numbers of people want to go from one area to another area -- almost en masse as in Kenosha -- that argues for trolley or Light Rail.  That's why Charlotte's new LYNX light-rail connects downtown and freeway park-n-ride lots with the stadium.   -  a. s. 

 

[wjstix]

I think what lattasnip9 is referring to is the idea that's been floating around of augmenting the current (and future) light rail system, which runs on dedicated right-of-way, with other LRV cars that would actually run in the streets. These would probably be new cars, rather than using restored historic cars.

The current light rail runs on the east and then north edge of downtown Minneapolis, there could be use for street lines connecting the light rail to rest of downtown. I've heard proposals too of adding a streetcar 'loop' that would circle around and thru downtown, for the use of shoppers going from one store to another and such.

Also the current light rail ends out at the Mall of America in east Bloomington, street running might be feasible to connect the MOA to the rest of Bloomington along with Richfield, Edina and maybe parts of south Minneapolis. I could see a line starting around Southdale in Edina, running southeast to Southtown Mall, then from there east along American Blvd to the Mall of America.

[lattasnip9]

No, I meant as in the old cars that they used in the first half of the century.  But some of those ideas could be very practical.

[Phoebe Vet]

We in Charlotte have trolleys AND light rail.

Restored historic trolley that actually used to run in Charlotte before they changed to buses.

Newly built trolleys

Light rail

[b&ofan]

In response to several thought in this thread: 

As one of the folks who restore, maintain, and operate the cars on the Minnesota Streetcar Museum lines, I can assure you that legacy TCRT cars will probably never see service for transit purposes again in the Twin Cities. There are only two of the actual "standard" TCRT cars remaining, one at Lake Harriet and one at Excelsior. 1239 at Excelsior hit its 100th year of existance last year, and 1300 at Lake Harriet passed that target in May of this year. These are museum pieces, and while they have been lovingly restored would not be up to the pounding of daily revenue service in all kinds of weather. PCC car #322 is hitting its 60th birthday next year, and again would have a hard time serving a daily ritual of transit service. All cars would require complete rewiring, and it would not be possible for them to meet ADA requirements without some expensive and disfiguring surgery that would disqualify them as museum pieces. 1239 would also need the wheel trucks replaced and proper motors obtained. Parts for these cars need to be handmade, as they have not been available from over-the-counter sources for many years.

That said, I would love to see streetcar service reinstated in the Twin Cities, especially Minneapolis, using either reproductions or modern-day trams. There is a considerable study now going on to evaluate doing just that. It would be a reinstallation of a few of the 1940s lines that operated through the downtown.

St. Paul might be a different kettle of fish. Transit service in the capital city has always been, and continues to be, much less attractive to ridership than in Minneapolis in terms of passengers per mile or hour of service, and there could be some question of whether it would be advisable to restore downtown rail service there. It will be interesting to see what happens to the bus ridership in St. Paul once the Central Corridor line starts running.

One thing, however: in the two years (1953 and 1954) that the streetcars were discontinued in favor of "modern, comfortable buses" transit ridership in the Twin Cities plummeted by a full half. It had been tapering off following the end of WW-II, but that was the sharpest drop in ridership that has taken place in the history of transit in the Twin Cities. We have yet to return to the ridership levels of the late 1940s and early 1950s, but ridership is definitely increasing.  In those cities where streetcar service has been reinstituted, not only has transit ridership risen, but on the bus portions of those systems as well as on the streetcars with very few exceptions. Light rail has done even better, as records here in the Twin Cities can testify. A close examination of the records from the APTA and FTA web sites proves this.

It would be hard to find 60-year-old transit buses that even run (although Minnesota Transportation Museum does have a couple!), let alone could put the hours in service that our museum cars do, on a day in, day out basis. I am not aware of any bus still operating that is over 100 years old. Our Duluth #78 at Excelsior is operational and is 115 years old this year. It was the only working car we had at Excelsior from 1995 until 2005 when 1239 first went back into service.

Regards: Tom Fairbairn 

[wjstix]

No, I meant as in the old cars that they used in the first half of the century.  But some of those ideas could be very practical.

I'm not aware of any "feasability study" regarding bringing 100 year old trolley cars back online?? There was a proposal to have a streetcar operation in the heart of DT Minneapolis that people could use to get around in downtown, but nothing has ever come of that. Otherwise, except for the "streetcar" service I mentioned (like LRV's on University Ave.) I've not heard of anything.

The U of MN Railroad Club had a guest speaker at their annual "Gopher Rail" convention a couple of months back, he talked about plans going out to 2030 and never mentioned anything about using old streetcars. He did say some lines in the future may be partly on-street rather than dedicated right-of-ways, but these would be with new LRV's.

[b&ofan]

There are a number of lines that have started using reproduction cars patterned upon those of the early-to-mid 1900s, generally produced by a company better known for highway construction equipment (GOMACO), that are fully transit conformant. With the exception of some PCCS, notably in San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia, and Kenosha, few legacy cars still exist that would be up to either current-day transit regulations or day-in-day-out pounding of transit use, even if they could be rebuilt without a wheels-up reconstruction with all new materials. Time and disuse have taken a huge toll on the structural integrity of the few that still remain. Because legacy cars are in occasional use at the various museums does not rate them as structurally sound enough nor mechanically/electrically adequate to be used in daily transit service, especially given the extremes of weather they would encounter in Minnesota. What few of the still-existing Minneapolis PCCs that have not already been restored for street service were not deemed fit for restoration for that purpose. A full restoration, even assuming starting with relatively good cars, runs close to US$1,000,000 per each and you still have an old car with old technology.

If I understood correctly, the proposed return of streetcars downtown in Minneapolis would use either reproduction cars, or modern-day cars such as Toronto and Portland have been running. These are not Light Rail Vehicles, being lighter in weight and generally operated as single-unit vehicles rather than articulateds. There are, of course, streetcars being manufactured in Europe and elsewhere (but not the US at present) that are articulated in either three or five sections (and a few are seven-segment caterpillars!). Their top speeds are generally less than the LRVs, their construction is different, and they are made for faster acceleration and braking times than the LRVs so as to be able to maintain fast schedules in traffic. The reproduction cars are generally modeled upon either Brill or Birney trolleys, but use modern control equipment incorporating electronics rather than the old heavy-duty switches and relays used by the original cars. Some vendors and cities are rebuilding antique cars that have come from Europe, Australia, or Japan that were based on US designs or had actually been built here, but these are fairly rare and share the problems most legacy equipment has; parts, maintainability, and fragility.

Regards: Tom Fairbairn