Trains.com

Why are the SD45s hated.....

15501 views
104 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Wausau, Wisconsin
  • 2,354 posts
Why are the SD45s hated.....
Posted by WCfan on Saturday, May 5, 2007 8:52 PM
Why are the WC SD45s hated by CN. Almost all of them are scrapped. Is it because of the 20 cylinders, the turbo-charging, or is it because it doesn't fit in with CN standards? I heard that most railroads didn't want the SD45s, because they where running into problums. Is this true? Why are the SD45s so hated by other railroads?(Or am I wrong, and the Railroads loved them)
  • Member since
    September 2006
  • 1 posts
Posted by Benaiah on Saturday, May 5, 2007 10:45 PM

I believe that it was because the crankshafts in the long 20 cyclinder engines were subject to failure.  Obviously that would be a big fix even if all the other parts were still usable.  The flared and tilted radiators were also subject to leaking according to something I read.

Production began in 1965 with the -2 version coming on the scene in 1972.  These locos are old. 

Electronic controls in the modern locomotive allow it to perform better in terms of adhesion, fuel consumption, distributed locomotives, etc.  At least the new ones are going back to the flared radiators...

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • 1,432 posts
Posted by Limitedclear on Saturday, May 5, 2007 10:54 PM

They are fuel hogs and have a number of non-standard features making maintenance more difficult and non-standard. They are also old and suffering from being run hard and put up wet for a lot of years...

LC

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: WSOR Northern Div.
  • 1,559 posts
Posted by WSOR 3801 on Sunday, May 6, 2007 2:42 PM
Mostly the problem is the 20-cylinder engine.  Many have been rebuilt with 16-cylinder engines.  Many WC SD45 were rebuilt with the Q-tron or similar wheelslip control, so they should pull similarly to newer engines.  Fuel ecomomy would be less, but sometimes simplicty and availabilty overrule that.  CN has older SD40 types running around, also rebuilt over the years.

Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • 1,432 posts
Posted by Limitedclear on Sunday, May 6, 2007 3:19 PM

Forgot to mention that the SD45s will never meet the new EPA emissions standards.

LC

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Munster,IN
  • 14 posts
Posted by chuckles on Sunday, May 6, 2007 3:49 PM

I am sure that Wisconsin Central bought the SD45's because they were cheap and they had good mechanical men to look at them when they were purchased and to keep them running.

chuckles
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: New London WI
  • 347 posts
Posted by B.Erdmann on Sunday, May 6, 2007 4:26 PM

the WC did have good mechanical workers that worked in the shops in fond du lac where all them wc loco's & cars were all refurbrished & painted & the whole works.  i liked the sd 45's bacuse of its looks i could reconize it by the back end of it & the first one i ever met personaly was 7515 the closest i ever got to one when i was at stevens point abt 10 yds. any way i dont think 7525 will be around much longer. when they broguth them abck CN said they were gonna be around til next year but i guess CN changed thier mind on us.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Wausau, Wisconsin
  • 2,354 posts
Posted by WCfan on Sunday, May 6, 2007 4:50 PM
 chuckles wrote:

I am sure that Wisconsin Central bought the SD45's because they were cheap and they had good mechanical men to look at them when they were purchased and to keep them running.

Yea they where cheap. I heard that WC got 10 for a million dollors, not a millon dollers each, but for all ten! WC had very good mechanical men, They took a CSX GP40 and put parts from 3 diffrent railroads on it to get it running again. Amazing! They also resurrected the GP7s, SDL39s, FP45, F45s and, SD24s. WC adopted all of the equpiment other railroads didn't want because they where cheap.
  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Duluth,Minnesota,USA
  • 4,015 posts
Posted by coborn35 on Sunday, May 6, 2007 8:32 PM
 WCfan wrote:
 chuckles wrote:

I am sure that Wisconsin Central bought the SD45's because they were cheap and they had good mechanical men to look at them when they were purchased and to keep them running.

Yea they where cheap. I heard that WC got 10 for a million dollors, not a millon dollers each, but for all ten! WC had very good mechanical men, They took a CSX GP40 and put parts from 3 diffrent railroads on it to get it running again. Amazing! They also resurrected the GP7s, SDL39s, FP45, F45s and, SD24s. WC adopted all of the equpiment other railroads didn't want because they where cheap.

Not really. Most parts are interchangeable. 

Mechanical Department  "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."

The Missabe Road: Safety First

 

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, May 7, 2007 6:54 AM
Key word to the above post is that most parts are interchangeable.  A crankshaft for a V-20 isn't exactly usable in any other engine.  I can remember the speed with which the major railroads unloaded their SW1's when EMD announced it would stop making parts unique to the V-6 engine.
The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: roundhouse
  • 2,747 posts
Posted by Randy Stahl on Monday, May 7, 2007 5:33 PM
 WCfan wrote:
 chuckles wrote:

I am sure that Wisconsin Central bought the SD45's because they were cheap and they had good mechanical men to look at them when they were purchased and to keep them running.

Yea they where cheap. I heard that WC got 10 for a million dollors, not a millon dollers each, but for all ten! WC had very good mechanical men, They took a CSX GP40 and put parts from 3 diffrent railroads on it to get it running again. Amazing! They also resurrected the GP7s, SDL39s, FP45, F45s and, SD24s. WC adopted all of the equpiment other railroads didn't want because they where cheap.

We got more than 10 for a million dollars , on average (after the initial BN purchase) we paid around 40K -70K for an SD-45 .. you do the math..

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:20 AM

It has nothing to do with "hate".  It's just plain economics.  CN wants to own as few locomotives as possible at the least possible cost.

Newer locomotives burn less fuel per HP/hr of work done and they burn less at idle.  Compared to and SD40-2, and SD45 burns more idle fuel and, even though the power generating efficiency is about the same, they burn more fuel hauling a train because they provide more HP/ton.

The SD45s also lose when it comes to availability and/or cost to stock replacement parts.  There are just enough SD45-only parts that, if you have a small, free running fleet, are an expensive luxury to stock or would keep the locomotive out of service waiting on parts.  The turbo and radiator cores are the first two that come to mind.

The WC SD45s probably perform as well as any 40 series, but, in CN's fleet, they are orphans, so are the first to go when new power is delivered.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: NW Wisconsin
  • 3,857 posts
Posted by beaulieu on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:51 AM

It should be noted that BNSF is still running a small number of ex-Santa Fe SD45-2s. To minimize maintenance problems they are all in Rock train service in North Texas- South Oklahoma, so only one facility needs to stock any parts, also if any major part fails the locomotive is retired. 

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • 164 posts
Posted by blade on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 10:30 AM
i don't know about any body else out there who is a railfan opinion is but i happen to like diesel locomotives of all shapes and sizes.the sd-45 is no exception,only if cn would be kind enough to keep at least one and donate it to a railroad museum would of have been a nice gesture on thier part.shame on cn for scrapping them all.(p.s.as a side note i don't like canadian national railroad,even though i'm from canada.)cp rules cn drools.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 3:00 PM

 blade wrote:
i don't know about any body else out there who is a railfan opinion is but i happen to like diesel locomotives of all shapes and sizes.the sd-45 is no exception,only if cn would be kind enough to keep at least one and donate it to a railroad museum would of have been a nice gesture on thier part.shame on cn for scrapping them all.(p.s.as a side note i don't like canadian national railroad,even though i'm from canada.)cp rules cn drools.

 

i bet you wouldn't think that way if you owned their stock or worked for them and made ***loads of cash. then again you'd never be at home, either...it's a trade-off, obviously. i'd go work for them and make 5k/half but then again i'm young and the g/f would love the money. The darker side is either she/i would probably end up cheating because of all the time away from home. i've seen it and heard stories of it and it'll always be that way. romance of the rails, baby!

 

still beats a 9-5 for me. can't imagine doing anything else. 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: New Brighton, Minnesota
  • 1,493 posts
Posted by wctransfer on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 4:02 PM

Its not that they are hated more so being the fact that they dont fit into the thread of any class 1 anymore. WC had great mechanics, and those SD45s were easily some of the best units on the rails (and Im talking all engines in the 90s) and it was because all of the money that the WC put into them. After a while it wasnt a huge deal repairing them because they were cared for a long time, thats besides the few that had major troubles (all locos do), most ran like a swiss watch. Ask anyone who ran the WC SD45s (and who isnt a whiner when it comes to the noise) and they will tell you they were comfortable and pulled just as well as most new units. Course, during the later years CN didnt repair of give them routine maintenance so they went in the hole pretty fast. But, a few WC engineers were telling me that up and till' the end they still rode like beauty.

Alec

Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Wausau, Wisconsin
  • 2,354 posts
Posted by WCfan on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 4:45 PM

Who's whining about the SD45's noise? I love itBig Smile [:D]. I can tell a turbocharged SD-45 from any Locomotive.(Probably because I grew up aroung them and can't tell the diffrence) I guss they aren't hated as more of don'f fit in any more. I never realized that those locos where that old! I thought they where from the late 70s to early 80s.  But they where pretty bad. (Correct me if I'm wrong) The SD45 from Santa Fe and BN where pretty beat up. The link is at the bottom of a pic I found. And yes they wouldn't fit into the EPA. 

Another question, where the SD45s a experment loco? From the info you guys gave me it sounds like it. The angled radiators, the odd prime mover, and the low MPG(Miles Per Gallon). I have to say those where some of the most beautiful locos out there(in my opinion). Especally when there run High Hood forward, but that's another storyWink [;)]. 

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=182264

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • 11 posts
Posted by Underw8 on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 5:36 PM

Hypothetically,

You are purchasing a new car.  The cost of gasoline/petrol in your area is now up to $3.50 / gal.  (or comparable litre-rate).  Would YOU go out and buy a 20-cylinder car so you had the biggest engine in town?  OR would you puchase a 4-cyl car which got 45-50 mpg??

While the average railroad has more money than the average person, is this not throwing good money after bad??  SURE they can purchase the SD-45 (with 20 cyls) cheaper'n the U-23B (with 12).   Which is gonna cost more in operation?  20 cylinders or 12?  ESPECIALLY if the trains never exceed a length which twelve cylinders could pull at Timetable Speed, with no difficulty!

Which will cost more in maintenance?  Replacing 12 gaskets or 20?  The more cylinders, the greater the risk of *one* cylinder becoming useless, and returning the unit to the shop for tie-up, during which time it cannot be used *in revenue service*!

The only place which may have need of the SD-45 would be lines with a 3% grade AND 40-50 carload consist!

Underw8

PROUD father of an American Soldier

  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: roundhouse
  • 2,747 posts
Posted by Randy Stahl on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 6:41 PM
 Underw8 wrote:

The only place which may have need of the SD-45 would be lines with a 3% grade AND 40-50 carload consist!

Underw8

PROUD father of an American Soldier

Pretty much , the SD-45 was very good in notch 8 !

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Aurora Ohio
  • 216 posts
Posted by dansapo on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 6:49 PM
Well you could compare the sd45 to a '73 chevy with a 454 under the hood.Sure it has  horsepower but sucks gas at an alarming rate.
Dan Sapochetti
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Wausau, Wisconsin
  • 2,354 posts
Posted by WCfan on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 6:49 PM
 Randy Stahl wrote:
 Underw8 wrote:

The only place which may have need of the SD-45 would be lines with a 3% grade AND 40-50 carload consist!

Underw8

PROUD father of an American Soldier

Pretty much , the SD-45 was very good in notch 8 !

Sign - Ditto [#ditto] but WC did find use for them on the mains, But they only used them because thats what there main power was. (and the GP40/GP38-2s)

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 2 posts
Posted by LNHOGGER63 on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 8:57 PM
 WCfan wrote:
 Randy Stahl wrote:
 Underw8 wrote:

The only place which may have need of the SD-45 would be lines with a 3% grade AND 40-50 carload consist!

Underw8

PROUD father of an American Soldier

Pretty much , the SD-45 was very good in notch 8 !

Sign - Ditto [#ditto] but WC did find use for them on the mains, But they only used them because thats what there main power was. (and the GP40/GP38-2s)

The SD-45, FP-45 was designed to produce 4,000 HP & the original idea was that it would produce at least 3,600 HP for tractive effort while turning a HEP generator for passenger service.  What I loved about them was that most RRs put tonage on them based on 3,600 HP in freight service and while not turning the HEP gen. they would flat fly.

42 yrs pulling the throttle I do know what works.

TNX

Paul,  73,  KC9JKR

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 12:38 AM
 beaulieu wrote:

It should be noted that BNSF is still running a small number of ex-Santa Fe SD45-2s. To minimize maintenance problems they are all in Rock train service in North Texas- South Oklahoma, so only one facility needs to stock any parts, also if any major part fails the locomotive is retired. 



Actually, the SD45-2s up here in North Texas are on locals that switch grain elevators in Saginaw, TX. They originate out out of BNSF North and Saginaw Yards. There are usually a couple up in Haslet at the BNSF Alliance Yard which are used for trnasfers between BNSF yards in the area and the daily BNSF Alliance yard to UP Centenial(I will not call it Davison Yard) Yard.

The SD45-2s on rock trains are down in Central Texas(CenTex) and South Texas. You can find A-B-B-A sets of SD45-2 power down there. Up here in North Texas, are rock trains are pwered by ES44DCs, Trash 9-44CWs, and the occasional 8-40CW. My namesake, Gribble Siding gets up to six to 8 rock trains a day when business is booming and everything is gelling.

The only SD45-series locomotives on rock trains in North Texas are two wonderful CEFX SD45T-2s and an SD45R leasors, and are run by Dallas Garland and Northeastern(DGNO). All are former SSW or SP, and all still in SP "speed lettering" scheme. All have about inch high CEFX lettering, and cant really be seen if one is beyond say 25 meters.
  • Member since
    July 2001
  • From: Shelbyville, Kentucky
  • 1,967 posts
Posted by SSW9389 on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 7:45 AM

When I was in Temple, TEXAS last November the diesel house was thick with SD45-2s. There were at least 7 cabbed and one booster unit at Temple. One of the units was getting a new headlight the morning I stopped by to work at the Museum.

Ed

 

 Gribble Siding wrote:
 beaulieu wrote:

It should be noted that BNSF is still running a small number of ex-Santa Fe SD45-2s. To minimize maintenance problems they are all in Rock train service in North Texas- South Oklahoma, so only one facility needs to stock any parts, also if any major part fails the locomotive is retired. 



Actually, the SD45-2s up here in North Texas are on locals that switch grain elevators in Saginaw, TX. They originate out out of BNSF North and Saginaw Yards. There are usually a couple up in Haslet at the BNSF Alliance Yard which are used for trnasfers between BNSF yards in the area and the daily BNSF Alliance yard to UP Centenial(I will not call it Davison Yard) Yard.

The SD45-2s on rock trains are down in Central Texas(CenTex) and South Texas. You can find A-B-B-A sets of SD45-2 power down there. Up here in North Texas, are rock trains are pwered by ES44DCs, Trash 9-44CWs, and the occasional 8-40CW. My namesake, Gribble Siding gets up to six to 8 rock trains a day when business is booming and everything is gelling.

The only SD45-series locomotives on rock trains in North Texas are two wonderful CEFX SD45T-2s and an SD45R leasors, and are run by Dallas Garland and Northeastern(DGNO). All are former SSW or SP, and all still in SP "speed lettering" scheme. All have about inch high CEFX lettering, and cant really be seen if one is beyond say 25 meters.
COTTON BELT: Runs like a Blue Streak!
  • Member since
    April 2001
  • From: Roanoke, VA
  • 2,019 posts
Posted by BigJim on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 7:44 PM

What I loved about them was that most RRs put tonage on them based on 3,600 HP in freight service and while not turning the HEP gen. they would flat fly.

The absolute best consist I ever had was two SD45's and two GP40's. Now that consist would flat haul a train!

.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Wausau, Wisconsin
  • 2,354 posts
Posted by WCfan on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 8:19 PM
 BigJim wrote:

What I loved about them was that most RRs put tonage on them based on 3,600 HP in freight service and while not turning the HEP gen. they would flat fly.

The absolute best consist I ever had was two SD45's and two GP40's. Now that consist would flat haul a train!

Saw alot of that on WC. (Of my knowage) Except they had a GP40 in the lead with 2 SD45's behind it, now that would be something to model! Especally with sound! But I'll save that for the MR fourms.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Wausau, Wisconsin
  • 2,354 posts
Posted by WCfan on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 8:36 PM
Where the SD-45s a Expermental loco when they came out? From the info you guys gave me it sounds like it. The angled radiators, odd motor configuration, low mpg, noise, and in-efficiency.(Sorry guys I asked this before but no one answered)
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 9:47 PM

 WCfan wrote:
Where the SD-45s a Expermental loco when they came out? From the info you guys gave me it sounds like it. The angled radiators, odd motor configuration, low mpg, noise, and in-efficiency.(Sorry guys I asked this before but no one answered)

No they weren't an experiment. They were part of the "horsepower race" going on at the time. The radiators were flared to be able to sucessfully cool the large motor. They received a bad rap when some of the early production locos were experiencing main bearing failures and other small defects. Despite changes that fixed the problems, the fuel comsumption and extra maintenance costs (4-cyl more than that SD40) caused them to drop out of favor with many roads who then switched to buying the SD40. The difference in fuel usage is very apparent when considering that it was enough for the Montana Rail Link to pony the millions of dollars to purchase 16 brand-new SD70ACes. The fact that most RRs who bought the SD45s got them for the heaviest trains in the most demanding territory tends to wear them out more quickly.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 76 posts
Posted by mavrick0 on Sunday, May 13, 2007 4:52 PM
I know CN has two of the WC SD45's sitting up at the hump yard north of Keele St. in Vaughan as of 2 weeks ago.  But if they are scrapping them then who knows how long they may be around for.
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Aurora, IL
  • 4,515 posts
Posted by eolafan on Monday, May 14, 2007 2:01 PM
 Limitedclear wrote:

They are fuel hogs and have a number of non-standard features making maintenance more difficult and non-standard. They are also old and suffering from being run hard and put up wet for a lot of years...

LC

Sign - Ditto [#ditto]
Eolafan (a.k.a. Jim)

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy