Paul MilenkovicWhat is a Flexicoil truck and how does it contribute to track stresses?
The Flexicoil is the EMD 'replacement' for the Blomberg three-axle design. It uses independent coil springs for both vertical springing and some control of lateral motion. It is neither designed nor intended as a high-speed design, and that would likely be true even if frame-mounted motors or a monomoteur arrangement, with Cardan shaft or similar drive, were used in it. I will see if I can find some drawings or views that show the arrangement; if anyone knows of them, please save me time.
Don Oltmann once explained that the Pioneer III inside-bearing truck that goes on an Amfleet car has a very simple primary suspension consisting of slabs of rubber (elastomer) between the axle journals and the truck frame.
A little 1970s-era design methodology: the formula for passenger suspension from Nystrom on was 'stiff primary springing, soft secondary springing' more for ride quality than good guiding, track-following, or lateral compliance -- but those considerations are important, too, and account for much of the three-axis strut design you see in the 'last generations' of ISH and OSH pedestal trucks.
All the rage by the '70s were chevron-sprung trucks, which implemented the primary suspension via composite (Fabreeka-style) springs like the ones originally used for lateral on pedestal tenders, but now angled (hence the 'chevron') to provide both vertical and lateral compliance under load. This gave about the best axle-to-frame primary performance, while facilitating very soft and long-travel secondary springing -- not the very long outside springs on designs like the ALP-44, or the air-bag arrangement on the Amfleet cars.
I have to run for a while, so more on the 'rest' later...
Overmod And SDP40Fs were high-geared, too ... well, that didn't turn out quite so well. Gearing speed is different from ride quality or induced track damage. I believe there are other examples where high speed and Flexicoil trucks turned out not to 'play well together' from the standpoint of track maintenance, which was more the 'side' I was addressing.
And SDP40Fs were high-geared, too ... well, that didn't turn out quite so well.
Gearing speed is different from ride quality or induced track damage. I believe there are other examples where high speed and Flexicoil trucks turned out not to 'play well together' from the standpoint of track maintenance, which was more the 'side' I was addressing.
What is a Flexicoil truck and how does it contribute to track stresses?
Don Oltmann once explained that the Pioneer III inside-bearing truck that goes on an Amfleet car has a very simple primary suspension consisting of slabs of rubber (elastomere) between the axle journals and the truck frame. I also heard that Amtrak is not fond of the Pioneer III design from track wear? Being an oddball design?
It seems that Amtrak has replaced almost every different truck design with the more conventional pedestal truck where the journals slide up and down in a slot? The Horizon cars were originally in commuter service, especially in Boston, with some variant of an inside-bearing truck, and Amtrak's were purchased with a pedestal truck? The Superliner I's had some European-inspired design but the Superliner II's reverted to pedestal trucks?
One of the problems the European-style trucks address is to produce increased stiffness of the axle against yaw relative to the truck frame, using automotive-type radius arms rather than a sliding guide of the pedestal style? The Pioneer III may also offer similar stiffness with the "rubber slab" connection? When a pedestal truck is worn, doesn't it allow the axle to yaw within the guides, creating an unsteady ride at high speed? Do the newer pedestal trucks incorporate something akin to Franklin self-adjusting wedges to counteract this effect?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Postwar CN did do a very good job of maintaining the track on its mainlines, so that may have covered up any issues with the 1900-series GMD1's. They were eventually re-geared to a lower speed, but I believe this was more a function of train cancellations and the creation of GO Transit bumping them off regular passenger assignments.
I don't imagine the crews enjoyed their ride quality at 80 mph very much.
They were still used as backup passenger power but were not popular in this role due to the lower gearing. There is a story in a old issue of CN Lines (the CN historical society's magazine) about the Montreal motive power director being forced to assign a pair of them to a priority evening train, only to receive calls from the Stationmaster, Trainmaster, and Superintendent complaining about the delays this would cause. His honest response was that they were the only passenger power left in the terminal, and their only other choice was to cancel the train.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SP got ten SDP45s about 1967 for their long-distance trains. They ended up on the Peninsula after Amtrak started getting SDP40Fs.
The SDP45s had 60:17 gearing for some of their lives, but SP limit was 70 mph for almost all of their lives. Of course, Santa Fe allowed its FP45s 90 mph -- think they were 59:18.
CN's passenger GMD1's had two-axle Flexcoils, and were initially geared for over 80 mph.
Didn't SP have some early SD's with steam generators for the Peninsula Commute?
SD70DudeBy my calculations a GP7 has a axle load of 61,500 lbs, a F7 is slightly higher. A SD7's axle load is 51,500 lbs, almost 10,000 lbs less than the GP7.
The point to remember is that the SD7 and GP7 have the same engine, which severely horsepower-limits the six-motor version as it gets into the rectangular-hyperbola part of the horsepower curve. Then the longer wheelbase and wackier riding of the Flexicoil trucks dramatically limit higher speed (in those days) and you of course have much more 'weight per available horsepower' to tote around.
Only when larger diesel engine capacity gave the ability for six axles to have the power density of "one and a half GP units" at comparable wheelslip did you see the four-motor units go out of vogue completely. Icing on the cake was practical radial steering on the HTCR trucks, which have an effective rigid wheelbase of zero, considerably less than any combination of lateral will provide in a swing-hanger Blomberg truck ... and two-axle radial steering is an iffy business at best.
By my calculations a GP7 has a axle load of 61,500 lbs, a F7 is slightly higher.
A SD7's axle load is 51,500 lbs, almost 10,000 lbs less than the GP7.
Of course, putting 2 extra axles under the GP7 would give an even lower axle loading.
This is essentially what Canadian National got EMD to do with the custom-designed GMD1. Its frame is nearly as long as a GP9, yet it has 6 axles, a smaller 12-cylinder engine, and a very small fuel tank. Its axle load is about the same as a RSC-series, under 40,000 lbs.
The SD "Special Duty" was designed originally for slow, heavy drag freight. The SD-7 was first built in 1952. I believe you are thinking of ALCO's RSC-2 (1946), with an A-1-A truck designed to put a lower axle weight on branch lines with light rails.
SeeYou190 cefinkjr I believe one reason for development of the six-axle SD (and possibly the reason for the Special Duty tag) was that they could be used on branch lines with lighter rail. . This was also my understanding of the reason for introducing the SD series of locomotives. They were much better suited to service on lines with lighter rail.. -Kevin
cefinkjr I believe one reason for development of the six-axle SD (and possibly the reason for the Special Duty tag) was that they could be used on branch lines with lighter rail. .
This was also my understanding of the reason for introducing the SD series of locomotives. They were much better suited to service on lines with lighter rail..
-Kevin
And then the railroads figured out - if you made the SD's heavier, you could haul more tonnage.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
cefinkjrI believe one reason for development of the six-axle SD (and possibly the reason for the Special Duty tag) was that they could be used on branch lines with lighter rail.
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This was also my understanding of the reason for introducing the SD series of locomotives. They were much better suited to service on lines with lighter rail.
Living the dream.
BNSF is a big enough system that some specialization is not a problem.
In the DC-motor era, the locomotive was limited more by traction motor overheating than by the diesel, except in high-speed less-than-heavy service.
In the current AC-motor era, the diesel is usually the overall limiting factor.
Psychot Given the constant striving for locomotive uniformity and interchangability at the Class 1’s, it bewilders me that they would introduce locomotives into their fleet that can/should only be used for certain applications, just to save a few bucks. I would think the complications they’re introducing into their locomotive management system would far outweigh the up-front savings.
Given the constant striving for locomotive uniformity and interchangability at the Class 1’s, it bewilders me that they would introduce locomotives into their fleet that can/should only be used for certain applications, just to save a few bucks. I would think the complications they’re introducing into their locomotive management system would far outweigh the up-front savings.
The reality is that each class of locomotive has a tonnage rating over the territories the train will be traversing. Power is assigned to be have a slightly greater tonnage rating than the tonnage of the train being handled - no matter what the configuration of that power is - 4-axle DC, 6-axle DC, 6-axle AC, C-4 AC. Whatever combination of units adds up to be greater than the tonnage of the train to be moved (consistant with a number of other internal company needs - quarterly inspections, power for outlying points, etc. etc. etc.)
Guys, we're talking about BNSF here. They put DC locomotives on every train but coal all day every day and they don't care what the trains.com forum commentors think.
BNSF requested the C4 and is the one decided where they get used, so how could you say they aren't being used for what they're designed for?
ATSFGuy What's wrong with the C4's? Did crews not like them?
What's wrong with the C4's? Did crews not like them?
The problem is that the railroads are using them in services for which they were not intended, especially heavy bulk trains. The four axles powered by AC motors may be relatively equivalent to six axles powered by DC motors on hotshots. That is not so true when compared with all six axles powered by AC motors, even with some of the weight removed from the idler axles.
The C4 design is best suited for fast trains that require horsepower and won't be lugging up grades at slow speed. By only having inverters for four AC motors instead of six, the cost reduction meant the purchase price is similar to older, less efficient technology, with six DC motors. And so GE no longer had to offer both types of traction motor.
NS6770fan SD doesn’t stand for special duty anymore. It stands for “Standard Duty”.
SD doesn’t stand for special duty anymore. It stands for “Standard Duty”.
In GE's C4 locomotives the weight on the center axle is varied by raising the upper spring seat. All axles use the same length spring. With the locomotive stationary all six springs will be compressed to the same length and within tolerances will be bearing the same weight. When the locomotive requires maximum tractive effort the control computer causes the air cylinder to raise the spring seat slightly, NOT THE AXLE, This reduces the locomotive weight on the center axle, and as a consequence the outer axles must bear more of the locomotive's weight. This extra weight allows the powered axles to increase the tractive effort without slipping. One not obvious consequence of this is that the weight of the locomotive applied to the center axle passes through the air cylinder and its linkage.
EMD/Progress Rail took a different approach. Using the fact that during high tractive effort, and hence high traction motor torque because all tractive motors are on the same side of the axles that they power, weight within the locomotive truck will naturally tend to shift towards the outer end of the truck. The secondary suspension between the truck and the locomotive frame is designed to counter this effect. On EMD's P4 locomotives with the inner most axle unpowered this torque effect is reduced, but the remaining force is used to effect the weight transfer from the unpowered to the powered axles. BNSF SD70ACe-P4 locomotives #8500 - 8519 were the only production locomotives built prior to the two Tier 4 demonstraters currently testing.
There were also 56 EMD SD70ACe locomotives built to Tier 3 emissions standards and having Individual Axle Control or one inverter per axle rather than one inverter per truck as on all other SD70ACe locomotives (excepting the 20 P4 variants of course), and hence are SD70ACe-P6 models. Of the 56 SD70ACe-P6, one was the Prototype that has been retained by EMD, five were demonstrators, of which one has been retained by EMD and four were sold to Canadian National as #8100 - 8103, 25 were production models sold to KCS as #4176 - 4199, and 25 to KCSdeM as #4200 - 4224. With the advent of Tier 4 locomotives and as a result of those locomotives built as "Tier 4 Credit" locomotives which can be with Individual Axle Control or not, it is known that all those built for NS have IAC and therefor must be SD70ACe-P6-T4C locomotives, it is unkown by me if the EMD SD70ACe Tier 4 Credit locomotives built for UP have IAC or not.
soo_gp9The SD locomotives were meant to do slow heavy hauls. Example, a 1750hp GP9 weighted 125 tons with four powered axles. A SD9, 1750hp, weighted 180 tons with 6 powered axles. The tractive effort was roughly a third more than a GP unit. It also took longer, at the same speed, to over heat the DC motors. The DMIR even weighted down its SD units with a concrete/steel block to increase tractive effort and had them delivered at the lowest gear ratio. I worked on these units, it was incredible what they could pull.
I believe one reason for development of the six-axle SD (and possibly the reason for the Special Duty tag) was that they could be used on branch lines with lighter rail. Using your figures, a GP-9 had an axle loading of 62,500 pounds while an SD-9 pressed the rails with 60,000 pounds per axle. These figures would, of course, vary depending on the options specified by the buyer.
In addition, the GP-9 and SD-9 were second generation. The axle loadings of first generation GP-7 and SD-7 units were probably lighter and may have been more different from each other. (Freely translated, these last two sentences mean I don't have the numbers available to me right now and I'm too lazy to research them.)
ChuckAllen, TX
In the Harry Bedwell book I am finishing up now, Eddie Sand works for a railroad (or a division) known as the SOD line.
Lithonia Operator Well, I thought I had successfully cheated by hyphenating "same-old." Tough crowd ...
Well, I thought I had successfully cheated by hyphenating "same-old."
Tough crowd ...
You think a mere hyphen would stop me from the SOD line?? (kids today!)
Lithonia Operator Paul of Covington Stick around, L. O. We'll make a nit picker out of you, too. Railfans? Nit-picky? No way.
Paul of Covington Stick around, L. O. We'll make a nit picker out of you, too.
Stick around, L. O. We'll make a nit picker out of you, too.
Railfans? Nit-picky? No way.
If you can't pick a nit, can you count a rivet?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
LensCapOn Lithonia Operator Maybe it's same-old duty. ;-) That would be SOD, wouldn't it?
Lithonia Operator Maybe it's same-old duty. ;-)
Maybe it's same-old duty. ;-)
That would be SOD, wouldn't it?
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