Leo, might know how many of those former Conrail C40-8s are still on the NS roster? I am just curious as to the total number of them. With traffic continuing to decline so far in 2016 compared to 2015, which declined from 2014, it will be interesting to see how far this rebuild program goes. I am sure once they leave Juniata Shops they are very reliable units, because the internal work is surely as good as the exterior "finish work". And on the other side of the coin, in an era of tight revenues, rebuilds are a way to preserve capital while keeping fleet reliability up. It will be interesting to see what the NS financial people decide is better economics as to whether to continue or discontinue the 8.5 program, or do a partial program of, say 50 units.
There were 14 former Conrail C40-8's that went to NS at the split. Of those, 8 units have been retired and I believe all have gone through or are in the process of going through the Dash 8.5 program.
The Trains Newswire the other day reported that Dash 8.5's #8507 and 8508 were active, although neither is rostered at NSDash9.com yet and they're possibly not former CR units. And the Roanoke Shops Facebook page says that the 8509 was also released.
And that site that's considered the definitive source for NS roster data lists the 8501-8502 and 8504-8505 as being on the roster officially, with 3 of those currently stored (All confirmed former CR units).
And there are pictures online of the 8500 and 8503, presumably former CR units since their long hoods are still in CR colors, with the new widecab in primer. And the 8506 has also been seen in similar condition on the Roanoke Shops Facebook page, but with the long hood in NS colors so I don't know their heritage. The 8510 and 8511 are in-progress as well.
That means that several original NS units are going through the Dash 8.5 program. So they're not just solely rebuilding the Conrail units at this time like I thought, although the focus seems to be on that small fleet.
And of the 6 Conrail units still rostered in their original form today, 5 of those are active with only 1 stored.
Thank you for the great info!
The current general rumor consensus is that the Dash 8.5-40CW program will be terminated after all the in-progress units are finished due to problems and the ET44AC order. Hopefully the program will be continued, as a small class traditionally doesn't do well on a large railroad.
Three more C40-8's are on their way to Cresson Steel. All are original NS units.
Per NSDash9.com, Dash 8.5's #8507-8509 are also now officially on the roster. These are all original NS units from the early 1990's. They've yet to be repainted though, so their cabs are still in primer. And perhaps alarmingly, they show a rebuild date of February 2015 (Typo, or have they really sat that long waiting for the bugs to be worked out?).
Even ignoring comments on the NSDash9 page from individuals that have some connection to the goings on down in Roanoke that echo what you've said, the anecdotal evidence sure isn't any better. This program seems to have been a struggle and the changing motive power requirements at NS seem to have sealed their fate most likely.
If they do work out all the kinks with them, the 154 unit C40-8W fleet is almost all active and many of them are older than the C40-8's going to scrap right now. They could perhaps be the recepient of what's gained through this, bolstering the numbers of Dash 8.5's in the future (And providing a cheaper avenue to refresh a portion of their fleet of early 90's GE's if the existing widecab is retained).
But they also have new GE's on the way and a lot of stored power slated for rebuilding that will soon be active and which could easily spell the end for even those.
At the very least, the work gone into developing a way to recycle the FDL should pay dividends with their AC44C6M program.
CSX still operates a sizable roster of Dash-8s. NS and CSX have been known to trade horses from time to time. Perhaps NS could have traded some Dash-8s for what's left of the former EL SD45-2s and/or the GP60s?
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CSX is in the process of eliminating the B40-8 from their roster, including the former CR units that they got from NS about a decade ago.
So I'm not so sure that they'd be interested in standard cab C40-8's that are about due for retirement or major rebuilding, especially with hundreds of Dash 8's in their own fleet that they'd have to deal with (Over 500 C40-8's of various models, if I'm not mistaken).
And with a traffic decline and loss of coal traffic that they're dealing with just like NS, they very well might be looking to downsize a bit just like they are (Didn't I read that NS is looking to reduce their roster by 400 units?).
CSX for instance had over 500 stored units back in January, including many of the C40-8's (Both standard and widecabs), every C40-9W (An interim model during the transition to the Dash 9, as I recall), and a portion of their AC6000CW fleet. And don't forget that they're slated for 100 new ET44AH's this year.
I could see the the Dash 8 disappearing in the next 2-3 years on CSX, with nothing older from GE than the AC4400CW and C44-9W fleets.
Leo_Ames I could see the the Dash 8 disappearing in the next 2-3 years on CSX, with nothing older from GE than the AC4400CW and C44-9W fleets.
D.CarletonThat said, the Dash-8s currently being rendered into scrap metal in Cresson are probably too far gone even for CSX.
Exactly. A lot of people don't seem to understand that the worst units are scrapped even when the best are rebuilt. Rebuilding programs don't rebuild every unit. (Though this program seems about done.)
I believe that was the plan however. They stated a number of planned Dash 8.5 rebuilds that aligned with the number of C40-8's on their roster.
Hopefully they still plan to build many more and are just retiring the worst of the bunch.
Strange. Any other diesel rebuild program that I can think of that produced at least the same number of units involved scrapping the bad units and buying someone else's good units.
I wonder if the C40-8Ws were intended to be part of the program?
NorthWest Strange. Any other diesel rebuild program that I can think of that produced at least the same number of units involved scrapping the bad units and buying someone else's good units. I wonder if the C40-8Ws were intended to be part of the program?
GE, historically, does not support older locomotive runs; they would much rather sell you a new locomotive. This ethos has served them well as they are the leading producer of locomotives for almost two decades now.
The idea behind the Dash-8.5 program was to make a GE equivalent of the SD60E. With the latter a big supplier was EMD. I don't know how much if at all GE is involved in the 8.5 program but history would imply that to be nil.
Norfolk Southern more than once said that 84 was the planned total, which as I recall back when it was first said, matched the number of this model still on their roster from NS's original 75 units and the 14 inherited from Conrail.
I can think of some exceptions, usually with 100 or less examples of that model on the roster. Southern Pacific's SD7's and SD9's for instance were rebuilt in their entirety, minus a few wrecked units no longer on the roster. I think Santa Fe cycled every F3/7/9A on the roster that hadn't been wrecked, minus one intact example saved for preservation, through the CF7 program for perhaps the largest example.
Someone on NSDash9's Facebook page though said that the only units going to Cresson were 10, so hopefully they're doing what you suspect and just cannibalizing and scrapping the worst units while still planning to rebuild most of the fleet (Although multiple people over there say that the program is being killed off).
NSDash9 reported on Facebook that two more C40-8's have been retired and are slated for rebuilding. These are original NS units and aren't former Conrail locomotives.
Good sign I'd say that all the reports on Facebook proclaiming that the program is dead aren't accurate.
Edit: He has since posted that the plan is to build 14 Dash 8.5's numbered 8500-8513 before moving on to AC44C6M rebuilds in Roanoke. So looks like it will be curtailed soon with it unknown if it will be restarted in the future.
M636C Leo_Ames I'm unclear as to what the advantage is here to NS rebuilding two GP38-2's with a turbocharged 16-645, yet retaining the same 2,000 horsepower rating? It might provide a fuel consumption advantage, particularly if the units need to run at full power.
Leo_Ames I'm unclear as to what the advantage is here to NS rebuilding two GP38-2's with a turbocharged 16-645, yet retaining the same 2,000 horsepower rating?
I'm unclear as to what the advantage is here to NS rebuilding two GP38-2's with a turbocharged 16-645, yet retaining the same 2,000 horsepower rating?
It might provide a fuel consumption advantage, particularly if the units need to run at full power.
If anyone is curious, NSDash9 had something about this the other day. 1 of the 2 test units suffered freeze damage this winter and was returned to its original setup during rebuilding. He said the fuel savings didn't justify the added cost of the turbocharger.
With GP38-2's set for what looks like a long life ahead of them on Class 1's, maybe we'll see this revisited when the price of diesel rises?
Not many AC44C6M's planned for 2016.
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Since they'll be lucky just to rebuild all the C40-9's at this rate, I wonder if they're just testing the waters right now and will ramp up production in 2017 if these meet expectations.
In other news, NSDash9 reports that the small fleet of former Conrail C40-8's still on the roster that had been eluding the storage lines for the most part have now all been stored. And just one of the original NS units is still out there active.
http://www.nsdash9.com/rosters/8689.html
The standard cab C40-8's don't appear like they will outlive their B32-8 stablemates by very long. And with traffic down, new GE's and rebuilds flowing out, the failed Dash 8.5 program, and their plans for fleet reduction, I don't see them coming back out.
I guess NS wants to focas on rebuliding mainline 6-axle locos into AC traction, which would effectively sideline the Dash 8.5 and SD60E rebuild programs.
According to NSDash9, NS 8505, the only Dash 8.5-40CW with a standard GE widecab, sustained fatal injuries in the train-truck incident in Chattanooga, TN, discussed at:
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/257540.aspx
Seems the program is now down to 13 units...
Too bad, but at least she did her job right to the end with the crew walking away from it.
I'm surprised that she'll likely be scrapped since it didn't look too bad in the few pictures that I saw. I wonder if this is due to fatal damage like to the frame, or is more the result of general dissatisfaction with the Dash 8.5 program in general that makes investing several hundred thousand dollars in repairs not worth the expense?
Hopefully some of her recently overhauled components like the FDL can at least be saved and put to good use.
Leo_AmesI'm surprised that she'll likely be scrapped since it didn't look too bad in the few pictures that I saw.
This is the picture that hasn't appeared in the coverage of the 'other thread' so far:
The thing that concerns me is how 8505 got here, in this position, with the other two locomotives 'remaining' where we saw them. I suspect there is some combination of impact and torquing damage that has made reasonable rebuilding ... net of all new 'fair market replacement value' attributable to the Dash-8.5 program ... uneconomical. I would highly expect this to extend to cast-crankcase damage to the prime mover, probably while it was still turning at considerable speed.
Here is a photo from yesterday of the 8505 upright: http://www.railpictures.net/photo/582988/
Granted that it is a telephoto shot (which tends to compress and exaggerate things), it does seem that the 8505 has suffered the warped frame of death. This was apparently a rather large and heavy container, so the weight differential in the collision was far less than in most train-truck accidents.
Apparently when it hit the trailer, 8505 and the trailer turned off to the side of the ROW while the other two units continued more inline with the tracks.
The big question is what it means for the program. I think only two other units are active.
NorthWest Here is a photo from yesterday of the 8505 upright: http://www.railpictures.net/photo/582988/ Granted that it is a telephoto shot (which tends to compress and exaggerate things), it does seem that the 8505 has suffered the warped frame of death.
Granted that it is a telephoto shot (which tends to compress and exaggerate things), it does seem that the 8505 has suffered the warped frame of death.
She certainly doesn't look too healthy in that picture.
The cab itself looks good though. Would be neat to see that live on, but with frame damage, looks probably are deceiving (And we can't see the conductor's side that landed on the ballast).
And she wasn't the leader according to the newswire, so strike an earlier post that credited this locomotive with keeping its crew safe. Just used to the leader being the one that takes the brunt of the damage.
The newswire seems to be wrong. The 8505 pretty much jacknifed from the rest of the train to face the other direction.
A picture from the same photographer shortly before the collision:
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/582774/
When all is said and done the 8505 is still a 27 year old locomotive at a fully depreciated value. Even with the rebuild the cost of repair may exceed the book value.
NorthWestA picture from the same photographer shortly before the collision: http://www.railpictures.net/photo/582774/
While we're on the subject of frames, what's up with 8462? Its frame almost compares with that shot of 8505; that can't be right, can it?
I know nothing about locomotive construction. Is that white stripe on the frame itself, or is it trim on the edge of the walkway?
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It's just paint on a strip of sheet metal.
The problem is that the sheet metal in question was presumably straight (or exhibited upward camber) when the locomotive came from the factory, has likely experienced nothing since then to make it change its orientation, and is certainly not straight now. That would make me at least question that something has banged the forward step end up,and perhaps croggled the back end a bit, too. Presumably this fits within 'tolerable damage' and is being exaggerated by the telephoto optics ... but I'm still a bit distressed to see it.
NS 8462 was built as LMS leaser 722 (note blanked rear marker lights), and has had the right-side camber for as long as I can find pictures of her (1998). A little bit of camber is not horrible over the 73' 8'' frame span provided that it doesn't affect structural integrity. Also, the running board edges are only a small part of the frame, which is concentrated in the center of the locomotive under the FDL.
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=457505
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2488871
Note that it is far less visible on the left side:
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2885647
The 8505 is far, far worse.
Oh, and here's what she looks like now:
https://www.facebook.com/nslocomotives/photos/a.111336769314.98388.111336324314/10153885617159315/?type=3&theater
Note that while the running board is seriously bent and battered, the rest of the unit appears still straight and level as the major frame beams in the middle of the unit are unaffected.
D.CarletonWhen all is said and done the 8505 is still a 27 year old locomotive at a fully depreciated value. Even with the rebuild the cost of repair may exceed the book value.
She was just heavily rebuilt. Does not the amortization process then start over, more or less?
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