Let me first say that im no engineer but i'l take a guess here. I'd also like to know the propper reason!
My guess is that you can use both at the same time to save the friction brakes on units and train from burning up on long grades. Maybe the same reason why you could use dynamic brakes alone on a gentle downward grade to control the speed of the train instead of using friction brakes.
More units can be added to a heavy train just to provide added brake force rather than more pulling power.
Over to the experts.
Improper use of Dynamics can derail a train or cause a break in two.
Dynamic braking is preferred. When dynamics alone won't control speed then you use air. If you need to slow down in a hurry, depending on train and circumstances, you will probably need to use air.
It's not unusual for me to go over my territory without touching the air, except when making a stop. Even then slowing for the stop is usually done with dynamics. Just depends on the kind of train you have and where you are at.
Of course, if you don't have working dynamics, then you don't have a choice.
Jeff
jeffhergert wrote: Dynamic braking is preferred. It's not unusual for me to go over my territory without touching the air, except when making a stop. Even then slowing for the stop is usually done with dynamics. Just depends on the kind of train you have and where you are at. Jeff
Dynamic braking is preferred.
Looks like i wasnt to far off the mark then
Not bad considering that nothing here has dynamic brakes save for a few passenger trains that have regenerative braking aswel as friction brakes.
wsherrick wrote:I learned how to run engines with a 6 brake. One the railroad I work for we still have engines with 6, 14 and 24 brakes and no dynamic braking. To me a modern 26 brake is child's play. It's self lapping and has pressure maintaining. The older systems of brakes require a lot of experience and you really have to know the physical characteristics of your run. It's all in your hands with those babies.
I worked for a shortline with the majority of the brakes being 24 with no dynamics. Most of the engineers I worked with despised them. The guys who hire on with the class 1's nowadays only see these things in history books.
Virtually any idiot can open up the throttle....
An Engineer knows how to brake the train and get it over the road.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
No.... just because a guys has the title of Engineer doesnt mean they know how to run a train really well. "A Good Hoghead" thats what you call a good engineer. Theres alot of people out there that just get by. Guess it just boils down to knowing what you can do with a train.
Old saying around here about engineers, theres the good ones... and the great. It's pretty hard to find a guy that will admit they suck. The times ive ripped on guys for running like crap, you can almost see the tears starting to fall. Out of all the guys ive saw, id only call 10% of them "good hogs". Thats my take on it. Things are changing, saving fuel is whats most important.
If they could teach a monkey to run a train, they would be on there insted of me. Does that tell you the kinda guys i work around??
ok.... under the rules of my road..they want you to use dynmaic and throttle modulation to controll train speed as opposed to strech breaking (useing the air)when condistions alow it... the first 2 the engineer has to know his territory to know when to do what and how much to notch off or how much dynamic to use... when i was in the seat and the division i ran over..there where lots of places where all it would take to drop the train speed down for a speed zone change was just notching back off the throttle a mile or 2 befor the start of the zone and the train will just settle right down to the speed that i needed it to be at at the speed limit sign.. a populer misconseption about dynamic is that the use of it can cause a wreck.. the proper term should be..MIS-use of it will cause a wreck.. the thing that i learned from some old heads when i was training was that you never do anything sudden and fast in normal day to day running..(emergancy situations are another story)... you can slow a train down to a crawl just by notching off..letting the trains slack settle out for 10 seconds (which is what they say in the rules to do anyways) and slowing gaithering up the slack.. once you get the slack bunched..you can pour on the dynamic.. slack changes is what cuases problems and wrecks.. to much of one thing or another to fast while the train isnt bunched or streched is where problems happen.. i use to be take 18000 tons of coal and drop it to almost a stop in a mile from beeboping along at a 25mph clip.. with just dynmaic.. and i never wrecked one yet running the train the way i did it..
also as someone mentioned above..every engineer is a legond in his own mind.. they pay good engineers just as much as bad ones.. the true test to who are good engineers and who arent are the ones that when your sitting around the office with other crews and listen to who they are talking good or bad about.. railroaders are worse then women when it comes to bad talking about fellow coworkers and will talk trash on anyones running style from how much they blow the horn to how bad they get run-ins and runouts of slack... but to find that type of thing out you have to be employeed by the company or be around a few railroaders that might be out as a small group at a bar and you hear them talking shop...
csx engineer
I don't know much about the mechanics, but I do know about railroaders from my Dad. He worked in Frisco RR yard office and he heard lots of stories about right way, wrong way, etc.
I don't know what a dynamic brake is, only one I ever knew about was air brakes. Must be something newer from the way everyone talks. I know about slack, used to hear that in the yards when Dad and I would hang out watching trains being put together.
I'd be interested in hearing any stories you have to share.
I've heard a few from my Dad, but only from the yards, not over the road. He worked in the yards as a clerk and then moved up into the yard office. Railroading can be a very dangerous profession, especially in the old days before safety rules. Mom's father worked for Frisco also as conductor and he had the usual missing index finger from the old link and pin coupler.
Sunnyland wrote: I don't know much about the mechanics, but I do know about railroaders from my Dad. He worked in Frisco RR yard office and he heard lots of stories about right way, wrong way, etc. I don't know what a dynamic brake is, only one I ever knew about was air brakes. Must be something newer from the way everyone talks. I know about slack, used to hear that in the yards when Dad and I would hang out watching trains being put together.
csxengineer98 wrote: ok.... under the rules of my road..they want you to use dynmaic and throttle modulation to controll train speed as opposed to strech breaking (useing the air)when condistions alow it... the first 2 the engineer has to know his territory to know when to do what and how much to notch off or how much dynamic to use... when i was in the seat and the division i ran over..there where lots of places where all it would take to drop the train speed down for a speed zone change was just notching back off the throttle a mile or 2 befor the start of the zone and the train will just settle right down to the speed that i needed it to be at at the speed limit sign.. a populer misconseption about dynamic is that the use of it can cause a wreck.. the proper term should be..MIS-use of it will cause a wreck.. the thing that i learned from some old heads when i was training was that you never do anything sudden and fast in normal day to day running..(emergancy situations are another story)... you can slow a train down to a crawl just by notching off..letting the trains slack settle out for 10 seconds (which is what they say in the rules to do anyways) and slowing gaithering up the slack.. once you get the slack bunched..you can pour on the dynamic.. slack changes is what cuases problems and wrecks.. to much of one thing or another to fast while the train isnt bunched or streched is where problems happen.. i use to be take 18000 tons of coal and drop it to almost a stop in a mile from beeboping along at a 25mph clip.. with just dynmaic.. and i never wrecked one yet running the train the way i did it.. also as someone mentioned above..every engineer is a legond in his own mind.. they pay good engineers just as much as bad ones.. the true test to who are good engineers and who arent are the ones that when your sitting around the office with other crews and listen to who they are talking good or bad about.. railroaders are worse then women when it comes to bad talking about fellow coworkers and will talk trash on anyones running style from how much they blow the horn to how bad they get run-ins and runouts of slack... but to find that type of thing out you have to be employeed by the company or be around a few railroaders that might be out as a small group at a bar and you hear them talking shop... csx engineer
I can tell you've really worked for a railroad. You are 199% right about the back stabbing that goes on. After my shift is over I go home.
I feel very fortunate to have learned how to run on steam with No. 6 brakes and and plenty of diesels with every brake type in between. I work for a shortline company that operates several different lines, some with pretty steep grades with engines that have 14 or 24 brakes without pressure maintaining and NO dynamics. I learned from the last of the old steam men and they were hard but good teachers. I had one old engineer hold the independant brake in release and wouldn't let me cheat by using it. The only time I got to handle it is when I had to bail off. I thought I would never get the hang of it before the fear of piling the train up at the bottom of the hill would wear off. But eventually I did. I learned how to feel the train by the seat of your pants and if a brake application would take or not or if I made too much of a reduction.
I agree in the best way to wreck a train is to not have an understanding about the nature of slack. One method that I use to control train speed and conserve my main reservoir is to allow the curves to slow the train down. I will release the brakes just before I come into a curve and the curve generally will hold the train below the allowed speed and it gives time for the brakes to recharge. The longer/heavier the train the more I pinch it down before releasing. In this manner the slack eases in and out in a slow, safe manner without the dreaded accordian effect. Of course with the old fashioned way of doing things one never starts without a leakage test and a running brake test to see how the train feels. I never skip either of these tests. To do so could mean real trouble once we crest the grade and start down.
ok.... under the rules of my road..they want you to use dynmaic and throttle modulation to controll train speed as opposed to strech breaking (useing the air)when condistions alow it...
We've been taught the same thing. Some have took it on their own to learn how to be the best that they can be and that includes knowing how to use the air.
In the "Something Funny Happened On The Way To The Forum" category;Way back when I went to engine school, we actually trained on a real train on real track, none of this simulator crap! AND, we were first taught to stretch brake! Fast forward to graduation day and along comes "Mean Gene" and the first words out of his mouth were..."We're not going to have any air brake artists out there...blah...blah...blah." Now, I'm sitting back there thinking this guy is an idiot. Why in the world would a class one RR want to put SAFETY in jeopardy by not having the best trained personel possible?
Remember TOP GUN? "Train Like You Fight...Fight Like You Train"Well piglets, it's the same darn thing, with the exception being these hogs are stuck to the rails.
.
Sunnyland wrote: I'd be interested in hearing any stories you have to share.
I've been a train twice where the dynamic brakes kicked out at the last second. First time i was new to the UP and on the brakemens board, second time as the engineer. Both times near Green River, one time from each direction.
Think id been with the UP for about 6 months, we were dogcatching west bound trains and bringing them into town. We were on a loaded auto rack and remember we had a one of those CNW AC motors. We were coming up to a red A block outside of town, had good lights for quite a ways until we got close to town. Ya have to get pretty close to the block in order to see the lights. So were putting along for the last 1/2 mile about 10mph, a slight down hill grade. 1/4 mile to the stop, little more dynamic... little more.... getting a feel for it. No air set yet, getting after it a little harder now.... he just about had it stopped then BLAM..... dynamics kicked out, all those long drawbars cars shoved us threw the block.
This time i was coming down the hill into town with good lights all the way in, big old double stack, power was a pack of those new EMD's right after they came out, i was told to stop the headend out front to change crews. Its fun to come in hot and see if you can put the steps on the walk way. Came around the last curve with all the motors screaming in dynamic, feeling for when i thought i should grab the air..then..BLAM lost them all. I wasnt looking at a red one, the worst i had,.... going past the walkway in full service,.....with the brakes on those new motors squeeling,.... and the outbound crew wondering what i was doing.
UPRR engineer wrote: Sunnyland wrote: I'd be interested in hearing any stories you have to share. I've been a train twice where the dynamic brakes kicked out at the last second. First time i was new to the UP and on the brakemens board, second time as the engineer. Both times near Green River, one time from each direction.Think id been with the UP for about 6 months, we were dogcatching west bound trains and bringing them into town. We were on a loaded auto rack and remember we had a one of those CNW AC motors. We were coming up to a red A block outside of town, had good lights for quite a ways until we got close to town. Ya have to get pretty close to the block in order to see the lights. So were putting along for the last 1/2 mile about 10mph, a slight down hill grade. 1/4 mile to the stop, little more dynamic... little more.... getting a feel for it. No air set yet, getting after it a little harder now.... he just about had it stopped then BLAM..... dynamics kicked out, all those long drawbars cars shoved us threw the block. This time i was coming down the hill into town with good lights all the way in, big old double stack, power was a pack of those new EMD's right after they came out, i was told to stop the headend out front to change crews. Its fun to come in hot and see if you can put the steps on the walk way. Came around the last curve with all the motors screaming in dynamic, feeling for when i thought i should grab the air..then..BLAM lost them all. I wasnt looking at a red one, the worst i had,.... going past the walkway in full service,.....with the brakes on those new motors squeeling,.... and the outbound crew wondering what i was doing.
That's a good story. Did you remember to bail off the independant ????
I hope your kidding.... if not why would i not have the drivers all the way on?? I was trying to stop.
Theres one example, if your going down hill in dynamics and they kick out (or ya get off them), and you grab full service like i did, bailing off the locomotive brakes might get ya a knuckle right behind the power. The slack as the power rolls away from the train... aint good.
I gotta a couple more good stories about guys that dont know the air real well.
If I was in that situation I probably would've done the same thing. So far I have been very lucky and never have pulled a knuckle. Now that I've said that, I'll probably do it tomorrow.
Feel free to tell all of the stories you want to. I can tell about when I was a conductor and my engineer didn't know how to use the automatic EVER. When switching long cuts of cars he would always use the independent to try and stop everything. If I wasn't ready for it, he would yank my teeth out. When I was two or three cars away from clearing a switch I would tell him one car so by the time he got the train stopped, it would generally be close to the right place.
BigJim wrote:ok.... under the rules of my road..they want you to use dynmaic and throttle modulation to controll train speed as opposed to strech breaking (useing the air)when condistions alow it... So what happens when the engineers start believing this stuff and never learn to stretch brake? They don't know what to do when the dynamic brake fails and ultimately wind up delaying the entire district (in the very least).We've been taught the same thing. Some have took it on their own to learn how to be the best that they can be and that includes knowing how to use the air.In the "Something Funny Happened On The Way To The Forum" category;Way back when I went to engine school, we actually trained on a real train on real track, none of this simulator crap! AND, we were first taught to stretch brake! Fast forward to graduation day and along comes "Mean Gene" and the first words out of his mouth were..."We're not going to have any air brake artists out there...blah...blah...blah." Now, I'm sitting back there thinking this guy is an idiot. Why in the world would a class one RR want to put SAFETY in jeopardy by not having the best trained personel possible? Remember TOP GUN? "Train Like You Fight...Fight Like You Train"Well piglets, it's the same darn thing, with the exception being these hogs are stuck to the rails.
you know as well as i do that the carriers want you to learn how to strech break too..
Heres a couple more before i lay down (worked lastnight), or maybe just one.
When i was still a pigglet (hoghead in training) had a good engineer show me how to bomb off the hill west of town with a heavy train. He didnt like taking the ride vs. being the one in the seat running it. But anyways he did a good job showing me, now i call it "running it in for a beer" when i have a crew that doesnt like it. When i did get onto another job with a hoghead whos skills werent the best, after a few days of seeing me come into town, he said he wanted to take the train down the hill. The way i was taught, and he watched me during the past days was to get her up to speed as quick as you could after you crested the hill then set min at the top see how that does, every trains different, more of this.. less of that, just depends. He starts down the hill, gets it up to speed then starts using heavy dynamic brakes. Speed down that hill is 50, so there screaming at 45.... cars still pushing us faster, round the curve at about 50 looking at a flasher about a mile up the road.... still no air set.... with 100 loads of soda ash and three big motors doing 50, they will almost hold it at 50 but they wont slow you down. Dynamic brakes dont work as well at speeds above about 35 or 40-ish with any kind of train, its even worse on a grade. So anyways we're howling by the flasher, the times ive done that (and i dont like doing it), and the times ive saw guys that run better then me do it, once they hit that flasher they grab 10 pounds right away. So we go another mile or so and were still doing 50 (suppost to try to get it down to 40 when ya pass a flasher), we might be looking at a yellow around the next curve and possiblily have to stop at the light after that. ANYWAYS were past the 10 pound, were out of control, i speak up and say "better see what full service does or else...." We round the next curve, sure enough just a yellow, eveything is grabbing now, knock down the signal and come to a stop about 1/2 mile past the block. He asks "guess i better kick them off and pump on her a bit".... "i would dude". This is when it gets bad, even before the cars start to push on us once again, he decides it time to go down there and stop at the A block. I bet we didnt move maybe 10 cars he grabs initial. Thats what pissing your air away is. I start ripping on him.... "you know what you just did?"...."ya i know"... "NO... NO you dont....you just stopped the motors from charging the cars back up... the only real brakes were gonna get now is if we plug it." He had no idea that grabbing the air so quick didnt do anything. We ended up getting better lights sometime during the education of how the air works so there wasnt a need to dump the train.
Hopefully someone on here can answer questions about the in's and out's and why while i sleep.
Excuse my newbie ignorance here, but what is "stretch braking"?
Thanks,
PaulH
but what is "stretch braking"?
I also hear it referred to as, "power braking." The general rule is you either want to run with the slack bunched or stretched out. Either way is fine as long as the engineer is consistent with his braking. The trouble comes when part of the train is bunched and the other part is not. When the automatic brakes are applied the braking starts at the front of the train and works back to the end. The longer the train the more time this takes. You can apply brakes and release them too quickly causing an accordion effect in the train which may pull a coupler knuckle or worse derail the train. This is especially bad when you are pushing a consist over switches and around curves. Too much slack action can cause wheels to climb over the rail in certain situations. On steam locomotives you have to bail off the independent brake (engine brake) when making a reduction because it is easy to over heat the tires, causing them to expand and come off of the driving wheels. Bailing off releases the brakes on the locomotive while the brakes are applied to the train. It has always been normal braking practice on the four railroads I have worked for to bail off when you make your first minimal reduction (6 pounds) and for each application after that. In an emergency situation with a long train you may not want to bail off because the hard application stretches out the slack on the train very quickly and if you bail off the engine will still maintain a forward motion which could snap a coupler. I guess it depends on the situation. Even though my current operations manager wants you to bail off in the event of an emergency application.
EMC's original FT was built without dynamic brakes. Look at a photo from its demonstration days in 1939-1940. I am also quite sure that dynamic braking originated with electric locomotives and not on diesels.
BaltACD wrote: Sunnyland wrote: Dynamic Braking has been around since the orignal EMD FT demonstrator locomotives of 1939. In it's simplest form it is nothing more than electrically changing the Traction motors into generators. The train momentum supplys the 'power' to turn the traction motor/generator....the more current the engineer demands from the traction motor/generator the more retardation is generated on the train. As generators the traction motors generate current that is disapated into heat on the dynamic brake grids and thus create braking power on the train.
Sunnyland wrote:
From Chapter 8 "Pa Choo Choo 1954-1967" of Cotton Belt Engineer: The Life and Times of C. W. "Red" Standefer 1898-1981. Red worked for Cotton Belt from 1917-1967 in engine service. In this quote Red is talking about dynamic braking.
It was a time when the old hoghead had to learn new tricks. He said about the diesel, "Well, there's a lot of difference. The braking was similar with the exception of the dynamic brake, which you might say is an electrical brake, that (they) would use in letting a heavy train down into, for instance a place like Greenville. Coming from Ft. Worth or Dallas, you come down into Greenville. It's a steep hill, and I always . . . . Now, a lot of the fellows didn't like the dynamic brake. I did. It's just put the traction motors kind of in reverse. All the slack would come right in against the engine, and you could control your speed down a hill comin' into Greenville like. But you didn't dare touch the air brake when you were doing that because you'd slide the wheels. When you slide the wheels on a locomotive, you're getting in their pocketbook because it costs several hundred dollars on account of those . . ."
"Explain that," said interviewer Joe Fred Cox an East Texas State University History Professor.
"Well it burns flat spots on the wheels, and every time those spots come over and hit a rail, it's an awful pounding. They have been so large and would hit with such force, they'd break a rail. When the company has to renew those wheels on account of flat spots, they don't like . . . They don't get along with the engineer very well."
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