Hi, SD70 Dude
I saw the video. Two, no three things come to my mind:
1. why does this smoke appear and disappear periodically?
2. oooh, they are sloooooowww, and they are swinging sideways left/right .. as if they really walk
3. that alarming high-pitched banging of the switch! as if you can wait for something to break; the other track is quite wobbly like a hand drawn line, visible even in the video
0S5A0R0A3
It sounds like the engine is hunting (not maintaining a stable load or RPM), which in this case is probably due to the wheelslip control system reducing the load to try and stop slips as they happen. Each time the engine picks up the load and starts working hard again a smoke cloud is produced.
The banging, clanking and rocking is typical of the rough track and many switches that are found on yard leads. The banging is especially loud at switch frogs, of which there are many in the area being filmed.
I also hear a lot of the normal 'clickity clack' noise of wheels going over rail joints, on lines with welded rail you don't hear that anymore.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70DudeWhen diesel engines idle or run at very low load for long periods of time they do not get up to proper operating temperature, and so do not completely burn their fuel. Internal parts like piston rings also may not seal properly when the engine is cold, which leads to more lube oil than usual leaking into the cylinders. And of course with the engine not working hard there is not much force from the exhaust. All this leads to oily sludge building up in the exhaust manifolds, which will bake into harder deposits over time. When such an engine is worked hard for the first time all that built up sludge is ejected from the stack, the performance in that photo is one of the most spectacular examples I've ever seen. Large non-turbocharged 2-stroke diesels like EMDs and FMs seem to be especially prone to this condition. An engine is this condition is also a fire hazard, as burning chunks of carbon also get ejected and can start fires beside the track.
That was absolutely nothing compared to starting a GE unit when it was dead cold! Talk about a Navy Destroyer laying down a smoke screen! The Navy has nothing on GE!!! I once had the fire department called on me for smoking up a town!
.
SD70DudeIt sounds like the engine is hunting (not maintaining a stable load or RPM), which in this case is probably due to the wheelslip control system reducing the load to try and stop slips as they happen.
I think it's a governor issue; gobs of fuel shot into the engine as the rack bangs over, then run back into lean as the engine starts to overspeed. Note how the one behind is quiet as a mouse.
It could be a field excitation problem, with the generator dropping and restoring load improperly and the engine governor trying to keep up, but I don't think you'd see those Neronian clouds in such case.
The mighty Pennsylvania (on your knees and bow in the direction first of Philadelphia and, knocking your forehead on the floor, Altoona) called its straight electric motive power "Motors" and I think several lines followed their example. (IIRC, N&W and VGN...maybe NH).
They also called the guys running the motive power "Enginemen" (how sexist!). "Engineers" were guys with college degrees running slide rules and sitting at drafting tables. My dad worked his way through college in engine service, so he was a fireman before he became an engineer, but that was in the later sense.
Overmod SD70Dude It sounds like the engine is hunting (not maintaining a stable load or RPM), which in this case is probably due to the wheelslip control system reducing the load to try and stop slips as they happen. A GP9 with wheelslip control?
SD70Dude It sounds like the engine is hunting (not maintaining a stable load or RPM), which in this case is probably due to the wheelslip control system reducing the load to try and stop slips as they happen.
A GP9 with wheelslip control?
The GP9 operator's manual talks about a wheelslip control system. I imagine it was pretty basic.
While it could be a governor issue this sort of engine surging can also happen as the unit slips, drops its load, tries to pull again, slips, drops its load... ...and so on.
From about the 0:24 mark of the video you can hear the unit spin severely several times, the end of each slip is in sync with a puff of smoke starting.
It also looks like the Engineer is watching the unit walk the train away and trying to find out when they have accelerated enough to use the power of the next throttle notch, at 0:42 it looks like he throttled up and then immediately throttled down again, this is repeated a couple times over the next 30 seconds.The second GP9 may have been in somewhat better mechanical condition, and the training SD's don't seem to be online.
SD70DudeThe GP9 operator's manual talks about a wheelslip control system. I imagine it was pretty basic.
What I recall is that the slip system modulated the main generator excitation, which as I recall was interlinked with the Woodward governor to give load regulation. Remember the discussion we had about this a few months ago?
If the signal from the generator was not going properly to the governor the engine would overspeed when the load was released, but that would be with constant fuel and increasing positive-displacement air. That might blow flaming chunks of carbon, etc. but I wouldn't think overfueling to give that very prompt white smoke.
Severe wheelslips can cause the engine to hunt on much newer units than a GP9. Of course so can problems with the control systems.
Overfuelling (or plugged air filters) tends to make black smoke. While I wouldn't rule out that unit having a fuel problem, thick white clouds like that don't happen unless you have quite a bit of accumulated buildup ready to be ejected at once. The abrupt increase in exhaust pressure from each surge provides the force to eject that buildup, hence the smoke. And of course the sustained force at higher throttle notches continues to eject even more.
I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that flaming chunks were being ejected during that performance, they just might not be visible in the video.
SD70DudeOverfuelling (or plugged air filters) tends to make black smoke.
I suspect some of the truckers here are going to be familiar with green leakers that get scored liners. Some of the delightful chemicals those engines distill can be fascinating...
I should clarify what I meant, if the cylinder is still firing you'll get black smoke in a overfuelling/plugged air filter situation.
If it is not firing then you could definitely get a blue or white haze. I actually had a SD70M-2 recently that would produce a thick white/blue cloud, but only in notch 4 during unloaded operation. It would start running rougher than crap and the cloud would pour out, sounded like it was missing on multiple cylinders.
Since it ran fine in all other notches and when in power I suspect it was some sort of injection or control system problem. I booked it with the diesel doc but since it was pulling and braking normally he didn't ask me to run any tests.
Turbocharged engines can also carbon up if left idling for long periods, but usually not as bad as the blower 2-strokes. And they tend not to eject large chunks as the turbo screen catches most of them, and the blades take care of the rest. I do vividly recall a SD40-2W that must have had a broken screen, every so often when working hard a chunk would make it into the turbo, generating a large dark grey cloud accompanied by the sound of nails in a blender.
SD70Dude wrote: "I also hear a lot of the normal 'clickity clack' noise of wheels going over rail joints, on lines with welded rail you don't hear that anymore."
Oh, yes! on elder welded rails in Germany and Austria you can hear the former joints 'coming through' again - if less pronounced than before when they were proper joints - more casually hushed. I noted them on some DB and ÖBB mainlines and even on PKP (Poland) where welding should be relatively new. Not so in France - they seem to have longer-lasting steel casting for the welds. On the SNCF, riding was generally smoother and had a certain 'swing' to it that had retained a touch of classic rail traveling that had a charm: the lead-in and lead-out of curves were perfect, the track had no 'bumps' and 'holes' as happened on DB (not severe but yet not perfect), this was combined with a remarkable smoothness of handling power and brakes: starting was like there was a Pacific upfront, and only smoothly glided into the stronger acceleration of an electric, braking was begun softly and only then grew stronger and it was well flared out before stopping. On DB drivers normally applied all the power at once and rather 'ripped' a train from the platform and also put it to a stop the same way: braking rather hard right down to V = 0 with a bounce-back effect to the passengers. DR drivers did that with steam and that produced a bounce-back effect in the train since the engine usually brakes less hard than the train consist and thus bangs back heftily on bumpers once the train has come to a stop. While on DB switches were usually perfect or near-perfect, not making much noise nor causing much lateral or vertical motion to the coaches, there were some unexpected light bumps and holes, mostly at level road crossings or going on / off a bridge. On DR - well - track in the 1990s was all due for complete renewal and so riding was - uhm - loud, vivid to the point of alarming. In contrast, Swiss train riding is so geometrically perfect it becomes almost boring after an initial appreciation of the first-class workmanship - the scenery of Alpes helps, though. The SBB - CFF electrics accelerate as if they have rubber tires - one Bo-Bo electric took our 14 coaches train out of Zurich as if it was a Co-Co and virtually flattened any inclines. Of course, no old rail weldings make themselves heard - it's but one subdued hush all the way, even switchwork in stations are smooth and keep but a low clacking.
Juniatha
Oh, yes! on elder welded rails in Europe you can hear the former joints 'coming through' again - if less pronounced than before when they were proper joints - more hushed, casually. I noted them on some DB mainlines and even on PKP (Poland) where welding should be relatively new. Not so in France - they seem to have a longer lasting steel casting for the welds; on the SNCF, riding was generally smoother and had a certain 'swing' to it that had retained a touch of classic rail travelling that had a charm: the lead-in and lead-out of curves was perfect, the track had no 'bumps' and 'holes' as happened on DB (not severe but yet not perfect), this was combined with a certain smoothness of handling power and brakes: starting was like there was a Pacific up front, and only then glided into the stronger acceleration of an electric, braking was begun softly and only then grew stronger and it was flared out before stopping. On DB drivers normally applied all the power at once and rather 'ripped' a train from the platform and also put it to a stop the same way: braking rather hard right to V = 0 with a bounce back effect to the passengers. While switches were usually perfect or near perfect, not making much noise nor causing much lateral or vertical motion to the coaches, there were some unexpected light bumps and holes, mostly at level road crossings or going on / off a bridge. In Switzerland train riding is so geometrically perfect it becomes slightly boring after an initial appreciation of the first class workmanship - the scenery of Alpes helps out, though. The SBB - CFF electrics accelerate as if they have rubber tyres - one Bo-Bo electric took our 14 coaches train out of Zurich as if it was a Co-Co and virtually flattened any inclines. Of course no old rail weldings make themselves heard - its but one subdued hush all the way, even switchwork in stations keep smooth with but a low clacking.
I agree. Those observations tally with what i remember from 26-40 years ago. The chief art-form of Germany is music, I think. Of Italy, painting. Of France, food.
Of Switzerland, Railroads!
daveklepper Of Switzerland, Railroads!
CSSHEGEWISCHFor Switzerland, I always thought it was timepieces and chocolate.
Overmod CSSHEGEWISCH For Switzerland, I always thought it was timepieces and chocolate. And banks.
CSSHEGEWISCH For Switzerland, I always thought it was timepieces and chocolate.
And banks.
And marksmanship.
There's a story of Kaiser Wilhelm II paying a state visit to Switzerland. As he was inspecting the honor guard he asked one of the soldiers "Well young man, what would you people do if the German Army invaded Switzerland at twice your strength?"
"Your Majesty, I suppose we'd have to shoot twice!"
My remark on rail conditions in Europe was posted under my 'austerity' account which I created for when I can't access my proper account.
Sorry if it caused confusion
Sara TOvermod wrote: " the sides were observed bowing in and out and cups of coffee sloshed in the diner... tightlock couplers, you know...)" Sides bowed: sideways movements Coffee sloshed (ouw!?) / tightlock couplers: lengthwise shaking? Strange .. But with a coffee in a 'to go' cup it wouldn't be too bad. 0S5A0R0A3
Sides bowed: sideways movements
Coffee sloshed (ouw!?) / tightlock couplers: lengthwise shaking?
Strange ..
But with a coffee in a 'to go' cup it wouldn't be too bad.
A little late in this response but seeing your cup of coffee, with the discussion of spilling said coffee, I was always told to keep my spoon in the cup when it was on the table to reduce the sloshing during train jerks or bumps.
>> I was always told to keep my spoon in the cup when it was on the table to reduce the sloshing during train jerks or bumps. <<
Oh, really? I would think with the spoon in the cup it makes it less stable. And to me it could happen I want to grab the cup, hit the spoon with the back of my fingers that spread out - and plinsh! - there it goes on the table, on my jeans, on the ground and then starts half an hour of cleaning until everything is right again.
This photo I found in the internet, it is like I often sit at a coffee table in a small Art Nouveau Café and I do have a hat like that, but it's not me, also I would take of the hat inside a café.
>>"Your Majesty, I suppose we'd have to shoot twice!"<<
A-hha! That's funny - and typical Swiss: they never get upset, must have been the ever-presence of the high mountains they always keep cool - no matter what.
Which reminds me...
Ever hear about the poor guy who went blind drinking coffee?
He left the spoon in the cup!
Flintlock >>He left the spoon in the cup!<<
.. and that was his last move, or how ..?
Hmm, that's not funny for me because at once I feel how bad it must be to turn blind.
Personally I don't drink much of it, in fact I prefer tea, Darjeeling or herbs, pure, no milk no sugar.
And for my note on the perfection of Swiss track, see this section of the Gotthard line between Göschenen and Erstfeld:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2CJbv9FVP
No sideways movements at all, no up-and-down, just smooth forward running. At 3:54 see the electric acceleration from stand still. Oh, and mind the switches: if you wouldn't see them you wouldn't know them because: no clacking no rattling (au-weiha - of course not! Ok: at 27:20 you hear a well defined 'technical' click-clack, but, hey, these are two double .. 'doublebubble' 'each way each direction' crosses, I hope you what I mean) On the up-side (mountain side of the line you see fences and walls: they are against 'caduta di sassi' - rockfall, I wonder what these wood planks can hold !? Often, when approaching a tunnel you see a shallow concrete structure before the proper entrance: this is for leading avalances over the line without damage.
Is the landscape more serene than nice? At least it shows how shady the days are in the Alpine areas, you see sun-lighted fields only far away and up in the mountains. Switzerland is regarded modern and industrialized, surprising how many ancient houses, villages and churches you see, and always this changing between running in the open and through tunnels. Its mostly up, if I'm not mistaken. This is Electric Traction's homeland!
Sara TPersonally I don't drink much of it, in fact I prefer tea, Darjeeling or herbs, pure, no milk no sugar.
Have you tried Lapsang Souchong?
deleted duplicat of below. This happened because when I pressed 'Update Reply' it blimpi-di-blimp came back to the same writing mode, not back to the thread.
Overmod >>Have you tried Lapsang Souchong?<<
Niagara coffee! Heeheehee! Well, now I tried to get back to matters rail/ways/roads but if you're asking:
yes, but I have tried a good many sorts and finally found I stay with the light flavor and mildness of Darjeeling.
Ach, sage-mal: didn't Juni write some anecdote about the Darjeeling railway to the sky and that their steam locomotives survived to become that old only because they make Yoga and Krshna himself lets his hand float over them for (instant divine) maintenance? Or .. don't know, does someone remember? I only recall it was delightful to read and at the same time gave a not-so-serious insight into the spiritual world there.
I put a few more remarks into my posting of March 21st allegedly 10:34h;
and I add more of 'Electricity homeland railway SBB CFF':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5hfdOVcMQo
Railway traffic on the Gotthard; at 4:00 you see a rare quadruple traction of BoBo + BoBoBo + BoBoBo + BoBo (to use just three bogies to make a six axle out of a four axle loco seems to me a quite simple as well as logical step); at 2.12 coming up you see a 'Taurus', really an Austrian design loco, running for MRCE dispolok enterprise (don't ask me, seems they rent electric locos?) at 4:47 you see one of these unavoidable everywhere hyper-fast-speed unit trains, at 5:30 coming up the new Swiss version of it; 6:10 at Erstfeld this is a classic Swiss BoBo AC electric in bleached 'modern' bright red, directly at the sign 'vietato traversare i binari' (don't step on the rails hee-hee-hee, no tresspass) it is being coupled to its train, what runs by close to us on the oposed track is one old Swiss 'Crocodile' 1C-C1 in original veteran brown body color, black chassis and wheels, with coupling rods and main rod almost like a steam loco, 3600 hp but enormous tractive effort, followed by newer BoBo in the then green paint with chrome lettering and the winged Swiss cross at the bow (that with all their practicality they didn't shrink from putting some chrome on their locos has always fascinated me); 8:40 a freight train with two locos at the head end passes through, two locos are almost universal on freight on the Gotthard, in cases they can be three. 9:10 now it gets historic: Ce6/8 Crocodile Gotthard type on the little turn table, hand wheel worked to turn, at first I wondered what the guy cares about this long stick - a-ha! it's for helping to turn, at 10:00 it becomes traditional: country music, Swiss style: "We're going with SBB into the greenery .." six persons needed to turn this monster - hee-hee-hee. That they must have these high pitched whistles .. at least they can be modulated. 13:10 and on we have a ride on the loco footplate, going into the depot. Since these locos are not so noisy they have at least a speedometer that clicks like a watch and loud! There is a reason for it, one Swiss railway man once explained it to me but sorry it went into me and without a stop right out again. The vintage shed proves how old electrification is in Switzerland and it is a shed for electric locos because it has no turn table .. 18:08 now, with some Swiss people chatting, comes the 'Crocodile': no noise from rods or cog wheels - this is Switzerland, what do you think! 19:30 a freight train with two DB 152 electrics passes: loco schedules are being optimized for mileage all over Europe. 20:10 an express on the same spot with a classic Swiss AC electric and a variety of late green paint (with light green stripe, now that was daring! but it wasn't enough, since the Austrian neighbors went to something quite new, they had to do the same: the neutral grey in two tones fits the mountainous landscape with their grey granite rocks and shady valleys .. and more trains. About the train length you should keep in mind that these lines all go up and down, mostly at quite heavy to unbelievable inclines, at 23:15 you hear two modern asyncron BoBo electrics howling under load - and they do have power! Emphasis is more on keeping speed up than on maximum tonnage, trains must pass through exactly on time and by the numbers! Finally, at 26:50 you can hear a classic AC electric regenerative braking as it passes by.
Next video is for the steam fans:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5d_pXzhUDk
Elephants are the 2-10-0 locos, ok, they were small elephants; 1:36 is fast forward, not real, noooh, not in Switzerland, they take care of their museums pieces!
Have a nice time watching!
SARA 05003
20:52h
Sara,
in Switzerland electrifying railways had provided a jump forward for train speeds like probably nowhere else - ok, Norway maybe.
=J=
Overmod Sara T Personally I don't drink much of it, in fact I prefer tea, Darjeeling or herbs, pure, no milk no sugar. Personally I like Niagara coffee: hot, strong, and black. The Newfoundlanders have an equivalent for tea: it is just as hot, much more strong, ink black, and it will raise the hair on your neck even in the coldest, wettest weather at sea! (Wayne can check and confirm this...) Have you tried Lapsang Souchong?
Sara T Personally I don't drink much of it, in fact I prefer tea, Darjeeling or herbs, pure, no milk no sugar.
Personally I like Niagara coffee: hot, strong, and black. The Newfoundlanders have an equivalent for tea: it is just as hot, much more strong, ink black, and it will raise the hair on your neck even in the coldest, wettest weather at sea! (Wayne can check and confirm this...)
That I can! And it's an odd thing, but hot strong tea, salt air, and a rolling sea all seem to complement each other perfectly.
Kind of like the way steam locomotives, cigars, and a mug of coffee complement each other perfectly.
According to these guys, tea goes with tanks too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyGVR95P8t0
Iiigittt! War brutal-machinery! Eeh!
And then this Bbrritishh Eeatwn stywl thbl-bblibydi English tawkin
Uwwh, brrr, gehs-de-wech, entsetzlich!
Arrogance in the purest of sorts yp tw the lofty nose. Esquisitlyblyh!
No! Stay away from me with that, please!
Searrawh owwh-fyfe-eow-weow-threeeeh
Now Sara, it's not just guys that like big noisy things that go BOOM!
Meet Sofilein.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D6oiktKyCM
Hello Flintlock
Sofilein, I couldn't believe this 'name', in German means little Sofi or Sofa, the 'i' coming from the addition of 'lein' which is the additive for 'belitteling' or making it like a small dog to look at from above. Now, Sofa by itself means couch or lounge.
So this little female is a little couch? And she speaks Bbbrritish again, only much faster than the guys before, she is a newer model of machine gun, so to say.
No-no-no I don't accept her as a proper woman selfconcious in her clear mind. She is obsessed with wanting to appear 'harder' than the guys and in that she is out of her womanly being. There are a number of these 'emancipated' (they call themselves but they are not) 'women' around, they crave to emulate males, not to fill out their female being and they don't fight for the rights of women neither because they themselves feel quite well among the males they surround themselves with.
Note April 2021: in view of recent developments, for my own safety I replace my picture that showed myself with this one avatar picture.
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