Having traveled through Bensenville by train from Elgin to Chicago since the late '80s, I used to see a lot of former Milwaukee Road locomotives with the name and logo blocked out (in the bandit/pumpkin scheme). I remembering seeing a lot of GP38s, and MP15s and maybe a few others. I have also seen pictures of a SD40-2 in the bandit scheme that was used as a leased loco by EMD and a GP7 owned by the WC in the bandit scheme. Seems most if not all of those are long gone - either repainted, sold or scrapped. If I remember correctly, most of the MIlwaukee's GEs were scrapped or returned to GE by the Soo but the Milwaukee had bought a bunch of SD40-2s not too long before they went belly up. My question: does anyone know of the disposition of ex-Milwaukee Road locomotives and specifically does anyone know of a list of the ex-Milwaukee locos that went over to the Soo (or other new owners) and ended up in the bandit scheme? Any photos? I suspect there is a list and/or photos out there somewhere but I have yet to find it. Thanks so much. -- Bruce
I meant to say, " a lot of GP38s, and MP15s, a few GP40s, and maybe a few others....." remembering that I had photos of GP40s in the bandit scheme. I do not recall seeing any bandits in Chicago in the last 5-10 years although perhaps someone has a more exact time-frame.
All 64 MP15ACs went to the Soo Line as did the 16 GP38-2s. Soo returned one batch of the MP15ACs(32 locomotives) to the lessor after about a year which then went to the UP. A couple of the second batch were repainted Red/white, and a couple got the Soo solid red scheme, at least one got the red scheme with CP lettering. all of these locomotives are now retired along with those that went to the UP and have scattered to the "Four Winds" I think GATX is the largest owner now. Of the GP38-2s the first batch of six(small fuel tank, no d/b) were "Banditized" but were returned to the lessor(5 went to KCS and got gray painted), one was leased to C&NW. The second batch of 10 GP38-2s(which have d/b) are the only ex-MILW locomotives on the Soo Line(Canadian Pacific) one was still a Bandit as of last year. About 10 of the GP40s were repainted, a few received overhauls(and repainting). Nine were still on the roster as of 12/31/17, all remaining ones were repainted and renumbered into the 46xx series. None of the 89 SD40-2s that went to the Soo(1 wrecked by MILW) were repainted before they were returned to the lessor, though many were Banditized and renumbered in mixed order into the 63xx series.
After being renumbered in the 6300-6388 number block for the Soo, many of the surviving SD40-2's went into the EMD lease fleet at the expiration of their 15 year lease and eventually immigrated to the Ferrocarriles Nacionales de México.
Helm and GATX picked up most of the remainder that were leased by parties other than EMD, although there were some exceptions here and there with their initial dispositions. Wisconsin Central got several of those that didn't go to HLCX/GATX, but I imagine much like the SDL39's, they weren't acquired from Soo proper but rather were leased from the bank by WC after having been taken back by the leasor at the conclusion of their 15 year lease on the MILW/Soo.
Don Strack has a nice article up about Union Pacific's MP15 fleet, which included many of the former Milwaukee Road locomotives.
http://utahrails.net/articles/up-sw-late.php
Thanks for the timely and thorough response. Kind of interesting how the Milwaukee Road “hung around” while CSX and NS erased any vestiges of Conrail within a few years. UP also has been fairly quick in repainting locomotives.
Back in I think one of the annual motive power surveys in Trains, one senior officer at the Soo said they went right through the metal when sandblasting several former Milwaukee locomotives in the mid 1980's in preparation for painting.
Being cash strapped and with so much of the Milwaukee fleet being earmarked for early retirement or return to leasor, I imagine that brought plans for a lot of full paint jobs to a halt pretty quickly.
Set the stage for some of these patched locomotives to still be out there decades later.
Leo_Amesone senior officer at the Soo said they went right through the metal when sandblasting several former Milwaukee locomotives in the mid 1980's in preparation for painting.
I think that is someone at Trains Magazine embellishing a story....
I really find that hard to believe living near the railroad and observing it over the 1970's while I was growing up. Towards the end years the Milwaukee had either deadlined or scrapped the locomotive types it wanted to get rid of and was standardizing on just a few types like the late model EMD's and some late model GE's. So if that was a early model U series or FM I would say possibly it was either scrapped by the time Soo took over or in the line waiting to be scrapped. There were a few exceptions but as part of the Milwaukee II reorg which the railroad was following prior to sale by the trustee......the Milwaukee fleet was pretty modern and standardized.
Though I will admit they had a LOT of crap during their big locomotive meltdown in the Winter of 1977. The railroad moved quickly after the line embargos and abandonments to prune crap power from the fleet post-1977. As soon as 1978 the railroad landed a big 4R act loan for rail rebuilding and the track crews went through the suburbs of Milwaukee lifting all the slow orders and bringing track speed up to 60 mph for frieghts from 40-45 previous. Amtrak first slammed through Brookfield at 79 mph around 1978 or 1979, I think the SPRINT train experiment started in 1980, etc. All while the railroad was in the depths of bankruptcy.
The late model EMD's were always on an paint / rebuild / repaint cycle even when the Milwaukee was bankrupt they churned out freshly repainted EMD units each year. The MP15AC's were the last new locomotives if you do not count the F40C's that were delivered to the Chicago Commutter lines. I believe they took delivery of the MP15AC's in 1975-76 if I am not mistaken. So most were only 10 years old on or about the time Soo Line took over. Highly doubt any of them had rust or maintenence issues at that point.
I believe the last road locomotives the Milwaukee Purchased was a batch of SD-40-2's roughly around 1972. Intended to be used as pool power with BN on coal trains to and from plants Milwaukee had service contracts with. So I am not sure but I think they only bought 25 or so.
I can't say for sure about their other locomotives but the MP15ACs were purchased and not leased and I believe most of the late model road switchers were owned and not leased. The frieght car pool was another story and a good portion were sold with lease back or leased in some kind of wierd gimmic to raise money. Towards their bankruptcy filing I think the Milwaukee stopped this practice and new cars were purchased after a date in the 1970's or at least they lacked the equipment trust certificate.
Just because a railroad is cash strapped does not mean it gives up on everything related to cash investment in physical equipment. What the Soo did with the equipment or how they maintained it is another story.
I really find that hard to believe living near the railroad and observing it over the 1970's while I was growing up. Towards the end years the Milwaukee had either deadlined or scrapped the locomotive types it wanted to get rid of and was standardizing on just a few types like the late model EMD's and some late model GE's. So if that was a early model U series or FM I would say possibly it was either scrapped by the time Soo took over or in the line waiting to be scrapped. There were a few exceptions but as part of the Milwaukee II reorg which the railroad was following prior to sale by the trustee......the Milwaukee fleet was pretty modern and standardized. Though I will admit they had a LOT of crap during their big locomotive meltdown in the Winter of 1977. The railroad moved quickly after the line embargos and abandonments to prune crap power from the fleet post-1977. As soon as 1978 the railroad landed a big 4R act loan for rail rebuilding and the track crews went through the suburbs of Milwaukee lifting all the slow orders and bringing track speed up to 60 mph for frieghts from 40-45 previous. Amtrak first slammed through Brookfield at 79 mph around 1978 or 1979, I think the SPRINT train experiment started in 1980, etc. All while the railroad was in the depths of bankruptcy. The late model EMD's were always on an paint / rebuild / repaint cycle even when the Milwaukee was bankrupt they churned out freshly repainted EMD units each year. The MP15AC's were the last new locomotives if you do not count the F40C's that were delivered to the Chicago Commutter lines. I believe they took delivery of the MP15AC's in 1975-76 if I am not mistaken. So most were only 10 years old on or about the time Soo Line took over. Highly doubt any of them had rust or maintenence issues at that point. I believe the last road locomotives the Milwaukee Purchased was a batch of SD-40-2's roughly around 1972. Intended to be used as pool power with BN on coal trains to and from plants Milwaukee had service contracts with. So I am not sure but I think they only bought 25 or so. I can't say for sure about their other locomotives but the MP15ACs were purchased and not leased and I believe most of the late model road switchers were owned and not leased. The frieght car pool was another story and a good portion were sold with lease back or leased in some kind of wierd gimmic to raise money. Towards their bankruptcy filing I think the Milwaukee stopped this practice and new cars were purchased after a date in the 1970's or at least they lacked the equipment trust certificate. Just because a railroad is cash strapped does not mean it gives up on everything related to cash investment in physical equipment. What the Soo did with the equipment or how they maintained it is another story.
In the 1970's the MILW financial situation was deteriorating heading into the 1977 bankruptcy filing, because of this the MILW was forced to sign lease agreements with relatively high payments. The Soo Line decided not to extend the lease on the first batch of GP38-2s as the small fuel tank limited their usefulness. None of the SD40-2s were to be retained as extending the leases did not make financial sense, and the lessors wanted too much to purchase the locomotives at the end of the lease. The Soo did not need all 64 of the MP15AC locomotives and the leasing company was willing to take them back early.
Hi, Thanks again guys. Very helpful. Assuming they purged their roster of most of their first generation locos, and most of their GEs, I would have to assume the Milwaukee still had some GP7/9s, SD45s, F7s, etc. on the roster in the late '70s to early '80s. I recall that the Wisconsin Southern took on some SD9s early on and were painted in an attractive green color. So what happened to the rest of their roster? Sold, scrapped, returned to lessors?
Probably all three of the above. The SD45/FP45's went early because of their relative oddball status and fuel consumption. Most of the lease returns came after the merger, many of those were resold as mentioned above. The older power was sold, many to scrap dealers but some wound up on shortlines, industries and other users. Metra has two ex-MILW SW1200's on the roster for M/W and switching service.
Bruce Frierdich Hi, Thanks again guys. Very helpful. Assuming they purged their roster of most of their first generation locos, and most of their GEs, I would have to assume the Milwaukee still had some GP7/9s, SD45s, F7s, etc. on the roster in the late '70s to early '80s. I recall that the Wisconsin Southern took on some SD9s early on and were painted in an attractive green color. So what happened to the rest of their roster? Sold, scrapped, returned to lessors?
Hi,
Thanks. That's the list I was hoping to see. Much appreciated. Last questions: of the top list
Hmm..... Unable to post the picture. I was looking at a GP 9 w/o d/b in bandit scheme lettered for WC, #4119, heading a train with an A/B consist of Algoma Central F7s, and a WC unit. Thanks.
Bruce
WC 4119 is almost certainly ex- FRVR 4119 ex- C&NW 4119 ex- CRIP 4444 nee- CRIP 1220 a rebuilt GP7.
Hi, Well, in the picture I have, it is unmistakably in the Milwaukee Road paint scheme with WC stenciled on the side. Check RailPictures.net.
Bruce Frierdich Hi, Well, in the picture I have, it is unmistakably in the Milwaukee Road paint scheme with WC stenciled on the side. Check RailPictures.net.
All of the U-boats were retired and/or scrapped after the SOO merger. Although the U30C's were compatible with BN power for unit train power pools, BN did not pick them up.
Hi. You may be right but boy that 4119 sure looks like Milwaukee orange and black in that photo. Thanks. Bruce
Ya, the problem is orange tends to fade into being more yellow so 4119 does at first look like a faded orange and black Milwaukee engine...but it's clearly in the old (pre-Zito) yellow and green. Plus if it were in Milwaukee orange and black, the black on top would come quite a bit farther down on the body - about the top half of the engine would be black.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=911035
Burlington Northern wouldn't of wanted to buy a few worn out 2nd hand U30C's.
BN U30C retirements started in 1986 (The same year I believe the Soo acquired the Milwaukee Road) with the elimination of the handful of pre-merger U30C's. They then kept busy for the rest of the 1980's and into the 1990's replacing their bought new fleet of ~180 U30C's as they hit 15 years of age.
Only an order of 30 from 1974 bucked the trend and survived well past the typical 15 year lifespan of a Burlington Northern U30C, for reasons I've never seen spelled out. They weren't even the youngest U30C's on the roster, but they stuck around with several making it to the BNSF roster, years after their stablemates had departed this world (Perhaps they were the only ones bought outright rather than leased?).
We’re BN’s C30-7s built new or rebuilt from U30Cs? Maybe that batch was rebuilt?
Burlington Northern didn't initiate U30C retirements until 1986, five years after the newest C30-7 on the roster had been delivered. With 1980/81 retirement dates, I bet some U25C's and U28C's went in for trade on some of those Dash 7's though.
I imagine if any U30C's went in trade to GE, they were all scrapped with no reuse of anything substantial. BN only bought four axle Dash 8's, so no opportunity to recycle the truck frames like some Dash 8 customers like Union Pacific did.
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