GP-15 rational

[ndbprr]

What were the factors that caused EMD to come out with basically a road switcher that was used predominately fpr yard work?  Thank you

[oltmannd]

It was a "rebuilt GP9" alternative.  A simple, new locomotive that maximized the amount of rebuilt components from trade-in locomotives.  It also had a toilet compartment which allowed it to be used places an SW could not. (there was a push in many states to require toilets by law)

[NorthWest]

Railroads at that point were seeking a locomotive that was equally at home in yard service and on the road as these secondary operations dwindled due to abandonments. Note that the concurrent MP15 series was the last series of EMD end-cab switchers, and that they had been designed with Blomberg road trucks in place of the traditional AAR switcher trucks that were limited to 45 MPH. The MP15s had optional toilets (which at least some of the Milwaukee units had), which as oltmannd notes were required for road service in many areas.

[LensCapOn]

U18 Sales!

 

 

(Duh!)

[carnej1]

LensCapOn

U18 Sales!

 

 

(Duh!)

 

I find it interesting that Seaboard Coast Line acquired the only large fleet of U18Bs sold and then a few years later initiated a major rebuiding program for their GP7/9/18s...

 

[Blackcloud 5229]

NorthWest

Railroads at that point were seeking a locomotive that was equally at home in yard service and on the road as these secondary operations dwindled due to abandonments. Note that the concurrent MP15 series was the last series of EMD end-cab switchers, and that they had been designed with Blomberg road trucks in place of the traditional AAR switcher trucks that were limited to 45 MPH. The MP15s had optional toilets (which at least some of the Milwaukee units had), which as oltmannd notes were required for road service in many areas.

 

 

the GP-15 was not an end cab switcher. It was a true road switcher with a short hood which had the toilet. It also used standard Bloomberg trucks. EMD found a way to minimize smoke by running the engine at 120 degrees instead off the normal 160-180 setting. Contrail bought 100 of them and they were very nice to run in the yard or on the road.

EMD used a lot of components if the railroad traded in GP-7's GP-8's or GP-9's trucks, and traction motors, air compressor, main generator and auxiliary generator were also used after rebuilding which gave the railroads a new locomotive that was shorter with a new 645 V-12 or a turbocharged 645 V-8. All Conrail engines used the naturally aspirated V-12. Modern cab eliminated water cab heating in favor of electric heat two radiant heaters one on each side and two heaters with a three speed fan for main heat and window defrostin. First one I ran was 24 days after it was delivered. It also eliminated electrical problems the first generation GP's had because the entire electrical system was -2 technology..

Conrail had one GP-8 at Beacon Park that drove the electricians nuts by after it went back into service by trippig the ground relay on the main generator took a electrician riding with me switching in the yard at night to find the problem. Under the main electrical board which held the reverser, main power contactors he saw something when it tripped for 15th time that night. Asked me to stop isolated the engine took up the floor board to access the pan thats underneath the main panel crawled into that area after I shut down the engine and came out with a  

chrome metal flashlight with dozens of spot welds all over it. Someone dropped into the pan under the main panel and every now and then it would touch one of the main generator terminals from the reverser. We didn't have any more ground relay problems from then on. This is why railroad flashlights are made of rubber or plastic. The engine house foreman after that discovery stopped every road crew going out and wanted to see the engineers and firemans flashlights. He confiscated 38 of the metal flashlights in one week and gave each employee a new  yellow rubberized flashlight to replace it with a box of 6 bulbs and 6 new D sized batteries. 

Something for all you engineers working on short lines with older power to think about.

stay safe keep alert out there. 

 

Never write comments when your overtired you make errors you don't see until you review your posting days later.

sorry folks

 

Jim

 

 

 

 

[NorthWest]

The MP15 is an end-cab switcher. Conrail purchased neither version.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_MP15DC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_MP15AC

It was the GP15 that Conrail purchased 100 of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_GP15-1

Not sure why there is a link to the G16 page at the bottom as they are two very different families of locomotive.

[Blackcloud 5229]

carnej1

 

 

LensCapOn

U18 Sales!

 

 

(Duh!)

 

 

 

 

I find it interesting that Seaboard Coast Line acquired the only large fleet of U18Bs sold and then a few years later initiated a major rebuiding program for their GP7/9/18s...

 

 

the real reason the U-18 never took off was the FDL engine great engine new but after 15-20 years they wou fail catastrophically to where it wasn't worth the investment to fix money wise. 

Unlke the FDL engine the EMD 567-645-710 had a proven track record of service and 99% of all shops at that time could service them easily instead of having to wait for parts to be shipped in from the locomotives maintenance base or GE. 

The GP-15-GP-15T had major savings over a rebuilt GP-7-8-9-10

number one is fewer cylinders to maintain a up to date electrical system and a tight cab air leak wise And a 26L brake stand versus what a lot of first generation Geeps had the 24 RL brake stand which is far more expensive to maintain and all new wiring on the entire locomotive 

that last point reduces maintaince so much so much the electricians were almost dancing for joy on Conrail when the GP-15's started showing up from the factory plus write off tax wise as the were new locomotives not rebuilds. 

Personally I would prefer an Alco RS-3 or an Alco S-2 or S-4 as a preferred locomotive all of which while smokey used far less fuel than an EMD. 

[ATSFGuy]

Anyone notice the rear of a GP15 looks identical to a tunnel motor?

[oltmannd]

Blackcloud 5229

EMD found a way to minimize smoke by running the engine at 120 degrees instead off the normal 160-180 setting.

No, no, no....  No different than any other EMD in the fleet.   They would soup up and smoke like every other EMD engine.  In fact, running them cooler would just make matters worse.

[RME]

Blackcloud 5229

...the real reason the U-18 never took off was the FDL engine great engine new but after 15-20 years they would fail catastrophically to where it wasn't worth the investment to fix money wise

I thought it wasn't the 'catastrophic' that did them in, it was the use of a relatively thin-wall cast crankcase that couldn't be fixed cost-effectively when, not if, it cracked in a critical area.  The engine might still be running, perhaps with a reduced number of active cylinders, just not salvageable for rebuilding.

See a different type of kludged fix on an FDL in relation to the Lac Megantic accident...

BTW:  Exactly what was it about the "120 degree" EMD fix that reduced smoke?  That can't be in relation to a thermostat setting (the coolant temperature shouldn't be below 160 or so or the oil never gets hot enough to lose its condensation water right) and I'd like to hear more technical detail.

[Entropy]

I'm not aware of a "120 degree fix", EMD 2 Cycle locomotive engines don't have a thermostat, in order to do so you would need to use glycol anti freeze. 

Typically though a 645/710 may idle around 120F degrees in minus number ambient temperatures.

Notch 8 you should expect to see the 180*F engine water temp. Fans start turning on to keep the engine within 186*F. 

[NdeM6400]

Reading bought ten MP15DCs, which Conrail inherited.

 

[Blackcloud 5229]

RME

 

 

Blackcloud 5229

...the real reason the U-18 never took off was the FDL engine great engine new but after 15-20 years they would fail catastrophically to where it wasn't worth the investment to fix money wise

 

 

I thought it wasn't the 'catastrophic' that did them in, it was the use of a relatively thin-wall cast crankcase that couldn't be fixed cost-effectively when, not if, it cracked in a critical area.  The engine might still be running, perhaps with a reduced number of active cylinders, just not salvageable for rebuilding.

See a different type of kludged fix on an FDL in relation to the Lac Megantic accident...

BTW:  Exactly what was it about the "120 degree" EMD fix that reduced smoke?  That can't be in relation to a thermostat setting (the coolant temperature shouldn't be below 160 or so or the oil never gets hot enough to lose its condensation water right) and I'd like to hear more technical detail.

 

when the Conrail GP-15's started appearing on the property I took the time to look one over front to back top to bottom and the major difference I noted was the Temp control unit , there are 2 of them one for service and the other for overheat in the event the primary fails. They all came from the factory set to turn the radiator fan on at 120 degrees F. Just fer chuckles I turned one up to 180 degrees F. And every time you came off idle it bellowed large clouds of blue smoke. After I turned it back to 120 degrees the smoke disappeared. EMD found a way apparently using the cooler oil being thicker than the oil at 180 degrees. I don't know of any EMD engine's that did the same. I even called EMD and spoke to one of their design engineers trying to figure out why and was told they discovered it would reduce smoke considerably compared to the normal temp setting of 160-180.

There is one reason why they would smoke so much and that is if the original thermostat was replaced by a rebuilt or new one it more than likely was set at 160-170-180. Like all previous EMD units were. If that happened she would smoke excessively but if you reduced the settings to 120 the smoke problem went away.

 

Jim

retired locomotive Engineer.

 

[Blackcloud 5229]

oltmannd

 

 

Blackcloud 5229

EMD found a way to minimize smoke by running the engine at 120 degrees instead off the normal 160-180 setting.

 

 

No, no, no....  No different than any other EMD in the fleet.   They would soup up and smoke like every other EMD engine.  In fact, running them cooler would just make matters worse.

 

I must disagree with your opinion as I ran the Conrail GP-15's from new. Kindly scroll down and read my last post about the GP-15's.

Jim

retired locomotive Engineer.

 

[RME]

Blackcloud 5229

... every time you came off idle it bellowed large clouds of blue smoke.  After I turned it back to 120 degrees the smoke disappeared.  EMD found a way apparently using the cooler oil being thicker than the oil at 180 degrees.

(1) How long did the engine smoke excessively after coming off idle? 

(2) What arrangements, if any, did EMD make to reduce water in the oil with temp. control set that low?  (This might be as simple as a mechanical separator, or raising the oil pickup and giving maintenance instructions to check for and drain any separated water from the bottom.)

(3) What are the likely places in this engine architecture that 'more viscous' oil would not pass to reduce smoke on acceleration?  Can't be cylinder lubrication/splash, as that is direct contact with hot surface.  Valve guides wouldn't be worn (or have excessive clearance) in an engine that new ... could it be that they opened up nominal clearance somewhere, perhaps in an attempt to reduce fuel consumption, with the unanticipated effect that the units smoked excessively at 'normal' oil temperature, and the only operative 'fix' was to reduce the cooling-water temperature?

Part of the surprising thing to me is that there was no additional 'souping' tendency from all those relatively cold surfaces in the more aggressively-cooled engine. 

[creepycrank]

From my Power Product experience (everything except locomotives) EMD engines like to run hotter for instance drill rig engines have 190 deg. thermostats and the oil temp. alarum is set at 230 degrees. From an associate of mine from EMD engineering he would like to see them run at 250 deg. to reduce oil consumption. The only thing he was worried about was piston cooling. While I on the subject the higher the water jacket temperature is the less heat is transferred from the combustion process to make useful work. On the Coast Guard buoy tender project the pacific boats raised the jacket water thermostat from the standard 170 deg. to 190 deg. to operate the fresh water evaporator. On trials the Pacific boats used 5% less fuel than the Atlantic boats. This was good data because the power was read off a watt meter specialy calibrated for this event (all propulsion was diesel electric. 

The Culpper Electric 12-645-F was a former drill rig unit with the 190 degree thermostat and they took the extra efficiency as ahigher rating. 

As far as emmission control is concerned for blower engines is concerned the EMD distibutor in California, Valley Diesel has a kit to up grade blower engines to tier 2 standard. This might require the to run at a higher temperature. Its the railroads that are dragging their feet as far as temperature control is concerned.