The "headline" is hyperbole on my part (perhaps I should have been a reporter) although I bet I could stir things up on the "Steam & Preservation" forum if I posted it there...
Ross Rowland , the famed Steam Preservationist has started a new firm seeking to convert existing long haul diesel locomotives to Compressed Natural Gas operation.
The scheme involves enormous CNG tenders and purpose built,commercially available Natural Gas engines (spark initiated rather than the dual fuel diesel cycle that CAT/EMD and GE are working on) in a Genset configuration.
Official website:
http://acesllcx.com/
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
You mean he's not going to run C&O 614 on compressed natural gas?
Awwwwwwww...bummer!
Juniatha
Firelock
>> You mean he's not going to run C&O 614 on compressed natural gas? <<
Oh-uhm yeah there you are ! Why not ! That would do away with black smoke once and for all . However in view of steam loco typical fuel consumption it would rather have to be liquid gas .
Regards
= J =
Hi Juniatha! Hmmm, maybe compressed natural gas isn't such a good idea for steamers. Now your tank full of Bommerlunder seems like a better idea! Just as flammable and everyone watching the run-bys will be in a good mood after inhaling the fumes!
Speaking of "cookin' with gas", now I'm heading over to the "Classic Toy Trains" site to see what's cookin' over there. Like "Penny Trains" latest Christmas layout posting on the "Forum".
If you folks haven't been over there you should go! Who knows, you might get the toy trains disease real bad like I did!
Firelock76 Hi Juniatha! Hmmm, maybe compressed natural gas isn't such a good idea for steamers. Now your tank full of Bommerlunder seems like a better idea! Just as flammable and everyone watching the run-bys will be in a good mood after inhaling the fumes!
But will we need to have a new and improved lyric for 'Eisgekuhlter Bommerlunder' if cryomethane temps are involved?
I don't know if anyone has looked into the rather interesting possibility of declaring aquavit a 'renewable fuel'. Pity there is no region where it could be recovered cheaply via fracking...
Weren't there a few steam locomotives built that had Natural Gas or Propane firing?
IIRC,there were some German Steam Accumulator locomotives that had gas burners for supplemental firing, whidh i gather was supposed to act as a "Range extender" to the stored steam. Normally such a locomotive would be referred to as "Fireless" but not so in this case...
carnej1IIRC,there were some German Steam Accumulator locomotives that had gas burners for supplemental firing, whidh i gather was supposed to act as a "Range extender" to the stored steam.
I had thought the supplemental firing was to produce superheat at any pressure, to improve the working of the engine proper. (Note the Quellmalz patent that I think does this with high-pressure higher-temperature accumulator steam in an exchanger, DE 431177 ... unless I'm misreading what this is; I'm sure someone will enlighten me if so.) In my opinion, that would be a much better use of firing, particular gas-fueled on-demand firing, than stretching a high-pressure charge.
Per carnej1, the steam locomotives at Busch Gardens here in Virginia are propane fired. I know, I seen 'em!
Presumably there are other amusement park steamers that are propane fired as well.
Full size steamers, I don't know.
And Overmod, the fracking that takes place with aquavit happens in your skull! Trust me, I know from experience! Wow!
Firelock76And Overmod, the fracking that takes place with aquavit happens in your skull! Trust me, I know from experience! Wow!
All the more reason to stick with the Trinity, the American alternative. (And it has the advantage of being a 'cryo' solution, too!) Admittedly it lacks the cachet of the European alternatives, but it gets the job done nicely with little or no hangover issue. The original formulation was:
1/4 grain punch -- just enough grain 'that you don't taste it'
1/4 Rose's lime juice
1/2 grain (original Everclear proof is what I used)
Lump of dry ice about the size of a walnut.
Has to be mixed in an insulated or plastic cup -- glass gets too cold. The dry ice freezes a shell of water around itself, so it's safe to drink from the rim of the cup rather than using a straw. Final proof of some versions is supposed to be above the 170 of the alcohol in V2 rocket fuel.
The alternative to this is to use a good slivovitz ... the real stuff, around 135-145 proof, with its tasty touch of cyanide from the pits ... instead of the punch. I confess I felt like Daffy Duck wearing the devil costume in that cartoon -- I know, I know, but I can only do it once.
SLM reportedly had a study on natural-gas (CNG) firing, done for the October railway in Russia. Discussion of this on the steam_tech list in 1999 indicates this was likely intended for the children's railway in Saint Petersburg. Roger Waller would likely know more.
When Frank Donnelly founded Railpower Technologies, the first locomotive product he wanted to introduce to the market (even before the Green Goat diesel battery hybrid) was a long range, heavy haul locomotive powered by a Compressed Natural Gas fueled Gas Turbine engine:
http://globaldocuments.morningstar.com/documentlibrary/document/cf7a4b5fd23ea7a4.msdoc/original
If you open the link and Scroll down to Page 5 there is a description,there is also a picture of a model of the proposed locomotive at the beginning of the document.
He sugested that that by using composite material CNG cylinders the locomotive would have a comparable operating range to diesel electric road units without using a seperate fuel tender car. This is because the use of a gas turbine power plant would have left a great deal of space in the locomotive carbody for the gas cylinders.
He cited similiar fuel cost figures for compressed vs. liquified natural to what the Rowlands group is predicting.
Overmod, you engineers, mechanical, chemical, or otherwise must throw some hellacious partys!
"Trinity"? By any chance was that named after the first A-bomb test site?
Firelock76"Trinity"? By any chance was that named after the first A-bomb test site?
Natch. But not the site, the test. Take your first sip and you will know why the name is apropos...
Well this is a bummer to read. Im all for Ross Rowland and love his work. But this? I pass.
Almost would have rather seen the FP45 looking ACE-3000 come to life. I guess I should let go of the dream of someone resurrecting Lima Loco Works huh?
Why is this a bummer?
Mr. Rowland is still actively operating and promoting Steam locomotives so I don't understand why anyone would dislike him for getting involved in other aspects of the railroad industry.
If anything, were he to have success with this it would enhance his ability to invest money and resources in his passion for steam...
The "headline" of my post was meant as a joke...
Not for one minute should you think I dislike RR. Who doesnt love this guy!!!
Its a bummer because Id like to see him focus on steam - only. Not other 'new' inventions. I see it as a distraction for him. But.... more power to him - hes one of a kind and we need him.
And this new idea hes working on has nothing to do with steam. If he wanted money, hed be better off returning to the stock market. I do wish him all the success he can get, no matter what hes doing.
Call me old fashioned but Id rather see Ross at the throttle of steam, rather than the drawing board in a cubicle. And since hes not at the throttle, THAT.... is the bummer.
PM Railfan Not for one minute should you think I dislike RR. Who doesnt love this guy!!! Its a bummer because Id like to see him focus on steam - only. Not other 'new' inventions. I see it as a distraction for him. But.... more power to him - hes one of a kind and we need him. And this new idea hes working on has nothing to do with steam. If he wanted money, hed be better off returning to the stock market. I do wish him all the success he can get, no matter what hes doing. Call me old fashioned but Id rather see Ross at the throttle of steam, rather than the drawing board in a cubicle. And since hes not at the throttle, THAT.... is the bummer.
IIRC, Ross Rowland made his fortune in commodities trading which may well have given him insight into the Natural Gas market and that might explain his involvement in this project,given that he also has had much experience dealing with the railroad industry.
As I said, my mentioning of the ACE3000 project in the title of thread was meant as a joke and I certainly wasn't intending to touch off any diesel vs. steam debates.................
No diesel vs. steam debates? Why not, man? You know what they say:
"Steam Rules! Diesels....." , well I won't go the rest of the way, this IS supposed to be a "family friendly" site. Suffice to say diesels do the same thing two-strokes do.
$60 oil is going to squash nat'l gas efforts in the short/medium term - just like what happened the last time....
Can there be any long term price differential per BTU for any one fuel type over another? What fundamental would drive that?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
It's much easier (and somewhat cheaper) to export oil than natural gas, so oil will probably be sold at a premium as long as the US is awash in natural gas. Oil is also a lot more convenient to use in transportation than natural gas.
erikem It's much easier (and somewhat cheaper) to export oil than natural gas, so oil will probably be sold at a premium as long as the US is awash in natural gas. Oil is also a lot more convenient to use in transportation than natural gas.
Sounds like things are gearing up for exporting natural gas... Also, electric generation seems to be sucking up gas as fast as the supply can increase. The glut of a few years ago seems to have abated. Now, there is a glut of oil...at least for a while.
At the end of the day, a BTU is a BTU and the market will settle out based on who can use what most easily.
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