GDRMCoDon't see why it matters...
Didn't say that it did. But they didn't just put it there because it looked nice. There's no harm in being curious what BNSF's motive power department was thinking when they came up with their in-house designation for this rebuilt locomotive.
The AC clearly makes sense to denote AC traction, the 44 reflects the horsepower rating, and together, it indicates it's an older pre GEVO design due to the AC4400CW designation for GE's AC offering of the time. And C4 appended to the end clearly signals that it's a A1A locomotive along the lines of the ES44C4.
But since there isn't anything designated as AC44C4's, the need for the M isn't completely clear. I'm sure it's being used in the context we're all familiar with it being used in to denote "modified", but it seems superfluous.
Does anyone know why BNSF decided to use C4 (A-1A) trucks instead of keeping the C-C trucks? Seems like they lost TE when starting or dragging a heavy train.
Theoretically, they are not, as the conversion has approximately the same performance characteristics of the orignal Dash-9 (but with better low speed adhesion. This, of course, is assuming that the conversion behaves like an ES44C4). BNSF simply decided it was not worth it to add TE by using six traction motors.
I can see their point since they have over 1000 ES44C4's and are using them in all types of service. The A-1-A trucks must work for them, so the conversion will save them a lot of money over a new locomotive and add another 15+ years of service to the converted ones.
So I take it that they're now cycling the remainder of the ATSF C44-9W's in for similar work after testing the prototype conversion?
Missed that bit of news and was starting to think that this would join the GP60B conversion with a Spartan cab off a scrapped SD40-2 and remain a species of 1.
caldreamer Does anyone know why BNSF decided to use C4 (A-1A) trucks instead of keeping the C-C trucks? Seems like they lost TE when starting or dragging a heavy train.
They did this not to change the types of services that this early C44-9W fleet is assigned to. And as said, the performance of a modern six axle DC locomotive with a C4 is roughly equivalent.
Rather, they did this to upgrade their air brakes and electrical systems to make them more compatible with the more modern Dash 9's on the roster along with the large fleet of ES44DC's and ES44C4's in the fleet. They're apparently currently not distributed power compatible, for an example of an area that they're deficient in compared to the many hundreds of later C44-9W's that BNSF purchased.
There's a bit in Trains from a year or so ago that mentions the issues that were starting to hold back this group and what BNSF was looking to gain with this upgrade program for them. It's not being undertaken to bring them up to six axle AC standards for coal service and such, but rather to extend their lifespan and make them fit in better with their stablemates on their usual manifest assignements and such.
If BNSF suddenly decided that they had too many of these and not enough AC CC's, I imagine that they would be selecting some modern C4's for conversion instead. Such an upgrade was supposedly trivial and part of the appeal of the C4 concept in the first place if a buyer suddenly wanted to upgrade and reassign them.
And don't forget that BNSF doesn't usually, if ever, order radial trucks for their CC AC's from GE. Chances are these surplus trucks will be living on under a future order for ES44T4's or whatever they're going to be designated as, helping the economics of this conversion to bring them up to what amounts to ES44C4 style standards.
Leo_AmesSo I take it that they're now cycling the remainder of the ATSF C44-9W's in for similar work after testing the prototype conversion?
I haven't heard anything regarding more conversions, and so I think just 616 has been converted as of now. If caldreamer has any information to the contrary, it would be good to know. My perspective on this is that it is less about fleet compatability (there are still quite a few Dash8-40CWs still on the roster, though not all are active) and more about having a back-up plan if the Tier IV locomotives prove unworkable. I suspect we'll know in a year or so whether or not BNSF feels more conversions are worthwhile.
Those differences are significant, though, and those Dash 9-44CWs are old enough that either a substantial rebuild or retirement is probably approaching. The future will tell if it is in an AC44C4 program or an in-kind rebuild to match others' specifications.
Interestingly enough, I've seen quite a few Dash-9s on unit trains in the last couple of years, as a result of the power shortage problems that require the next unit to be grabbed regardless of type. I think those incidences will decline as BNSF catches up.
I doubt they're too worried about GE's Tier 4 plans (Haven't they already placed substantial orders?). But if that's true, I'm rather surprised to not see some action on the SD70MAC front to prepare for a possible capital rebuild program.
There are hundreds of those stalwarts that are now past their 20th birthday and have lived a hard life, with a decision surely nearing on initiating retirements or rebuilding/upgrading for another 10-15 years of service.
But that Trains article made it sound like this modernization program had much to do about compatibility. So if anyone wonders if we'll see this program extend past these 100 or so units, I'd rather be surprised even if every last ATSF bought C44-9W is rebuilt in this manner, to see the later Dash 9's turned into C4's.
I'd expect more of a rebuild in-kind program for those newer C44-9W's, since they seamlessly fit in with the ES44DC's and ES44C4's.
Good point, especially since GE has apparently closed the longevity gap.
We also don't know the fate of the C40-8s, which could potentially see a similar converison, or the scrapper. Time will tell. I wish I were more prescient than I actually am.
While this is straying from the topic at hand and I agree that we'll likely learn the fate of the remaining Dash 8's relatively soon, I doubt they'll be scrapped if they're instead strickened in the next two or three years.
Unlike the four axle B40's (especially those with safety cabs) where there's just not enough takers to absorb a significant number of cast-offs, I think that the secondary markplace would snap up any C40-8W that becomes available.
BNSF (Or the leasor) shouldn't have any trouble getting more than salvage value for them. Norfolk Southern, Canadian National, lease fleets, regionals, and such likely would take interest.
Indeed, though the Dash-8 market appears to have slowed recently. A few ex-UP C40-8s (presumably the dregs of the fleet) have been on the market for a while and haven't been purchased. NS rebuilds replace the cab, anyway.
Regarding the possible AC44C4Ms (to swing this back on topic); I wonder if 616 has a similar arangement to the ES44C4s where provision for two more inverters is included in the rebuild. The electrical cabinet seems to be the same standard size, so it is a possibility.
NorthWestNS rebuilds replace the cab, anyway.
I don't believe that locomotives already equipped with a wide cab, other than a few wreck rebuilds, have been replaced with the NS designed Crescent wide cab?
That these already have a wide cab likely would likely appeal to NS if any BNSF C40-8W's become available soon at a good price, since they save the cost of a new Crescent cab (BNSF doesn't own any standard cab C40-8's, I believe).
The Crescent wide cab has been reserved, I believe, for six axle standard cab rebuilds intended for road service (SD60's and C40-8's). The wide cabs going through rebuilding have been upgraded in-kind, like they do with newer Spartan cabs from the 1980's for power intended for local service (SD40E's rebuilt from SD50 cores, for example; Only high hoods and older low hood EMD's are getting Admiral cabs).
Incidentally, one of the Dash 8.5's on NS has a GE cab. Kind of curious if that was salvaged, or NS bought it direct from GE and was conducting a comparison to evaluate it against the NS designed wide cab.
Derailed the topic again. :)
Yes; I mentioned that as a reason why it doesn't really matter the type of cab a rebuild candidate has, it'll end up with a wide cab anyway.
The one Dash-8 rebuild is interesting in that the cab is mounted higher than that of those of C40-8Ws, which have four steps on the front pilot. Later units have five, like the rebuild. It was recieved from GE, whether for this purpose or some other I don't know. The cab apparently also has a custom number board and headlight since NS moved them up from the short hood. It also apparently has power plug-ins for emergency power generation. Interesting unit.
Well, as long as we're having fun, I don't think the OP minds much.
Anyway, I suspect the AC44C4M has provisions for upgrade to six traction motors if desired, even if it is A1A-A1A.
NorthWestAnyway, I suspect the AC44C4M has provisions for upgrade to six traction motors if desired, even if they are A1A-A1A.
Doubt it's ever taken advantage of, but I imagine that you're right.
It will be interesting to see if BNSF green lights this for full production.
Indeed, we'll just have to wait and see. Good to know there is always something interesting to look forward to in the locomotive world.
Edit: Decided to move my question to the Dash 8.5 thread. :)
Leo_Ames NorthWest NS rebuilds replace the cab, anyway. I don't believe that locomotives already equipped with a wide cab, other than a few wreck rebuilds, have been replaced with the NS designed Crescent wide cab.
NorthWest NS rebuilds replace the cab, anyway.
I don't believe that locomotives already equipped with a wide cab, other than a few wreck rebuilds, have been replaced with the NS designed Crescent wide cab.
Chris Toth stated that NS is planning to change the Cabs on the former UP SD90MACs to either the EMD SD70ACe cab or similar.
I refer to these locomotives as "SD90MACs" as the 6000hp variant only barely exists in Australia on an isolated mining railroad now. I believe only perhaps 3 are left.
beaulieu I refer to these locomotives as "SD90MACs" as the 6000hp variant only barely exists in Australia on an isolated mining railroad now. I believe only perhaps 3 are left.
I'm at that isolated mining railway right now....
The original four H engine units 901-904 were re-engined with 710G3s but eight more H engine units (910-917) were delivered earlier this year. These seem to be running as trailing units, usually as middle unit between Dash 9s, SD70ACes or G engine SD90MACs. The trains are 250 cars of around 150 tonnes each. I've seen 916 and 913 so far....
M636C
caldreamer I can see their point since they have over 1000 ES44C4's and are using them in all types of service. The A-1-A trucks must work for them, so the conversion will save them a lot of money over a new locomotive and add another 15+ years of service to the converted ones.
I've also read that it was a price point driven decision, the C-4s are priced about the same as a ES44DC and, as pointed out by another poster, over comparable performance to the Dash 9 DC's. They have the benefit of sharing common traction components with BNSF's AC GE's as well...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
beaulieu Chris Toth stated that NS is planning to change the Cabs on the former UP SD90MACs to either the EMD SD70ACe cab or similar. I refer to these locomotives as "SD90MACs" as the 6000hp variant only barely exists in Australia on an isolated mining railroad now. I believe only perhaps 3 are left.
All the Australian units are Phase II with the SD70ACe cab from new.
I saw a train today with three SD90MACs, 904,911 and 909. The middle unit retained the 265H engine, visible from the twin (flush) stacks but a lot of extra soot around the stacks, where the 710G3 units just have iron ore dust,
Aren't all these former UP 710 engined SD90MAC's equipped with the isolated cab?
I'm surprised that NS would be considering purchasing new cabs from EMD or replacing them with an in-house design.
M636C, thanks for the news on the SD90MAC-HIIs; interesting to see them still in service.
NS has the non-isolated version of that cab in service on their SD60Ms and SD70Ms, so I'm not sure if they save a lot of money by replacing the cab. They still have to stock the odd-shaped windshields.
Leo_AmesIncidentally, one of the Dash 8.5's on NS has a GE cab. Kind of curious if that was salvaged, or NS bought it direct from GE and was conducting a comparison to evaluate it against the NS designed wide cab.
NS is reporting another variation. The 8500 has the older SD60E style Crescent cab and has been repainted in preparation for being released to service. Neither are surprises, given early photos and such.
The specification for this series though calls for the RLS widecab (Essentially an enhanced Crescent cab). But there will be at least two unique members of Norfolk Southern's new Dash 8.5 class.
Why wouldn't BNSF put 6 AC TMs in? Isn't it worth the extra TE if the horsepower is available from the engine?
BNSF is looking for high speed merchandise freight units. The whole idea of the ES44C4 was to get an AC traction locomotive for the price of a DC traction motor unit. With the A-1-A configuration, they save $$$ by having 2 less invertors and 2 less AC traction motors. They must like them, as they have like 1200 of them so far. The Dash 9 conversion program basically makes a AC4400C4 varient. If the program goes into full production, BNSF has a lot of good candidates on the property!
If you are not in need of maximum CTE at low speed(coal trains), these units make sense for merchandise trains.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
ML
What's rotting on them? The rubber isolation mountings?
Yes.
I've heard that the ATSF #600-series has mechanical fuel injection whereas all C44-9Ws built for BNSF have electroic fuel injection. I guess the rebuilt AC44C4M's have electrnic fuel injection too.
IIRC, the second oldest C44-9Ws on BNSF's roster are the #960-1123 series, which are mostly in Heritage I paint and still have the 3-pane side windows. My guess is these are next in line to be rebuilt after the former ATSF #600-series. The #700-#799-series BNSF silverbonnets are actually younger than the #960-#1123 series and were the first C44-9Ws to have the 4-pane side windows that's included in all subsequant BNSF GEs.
I've heard that the ATSF #600-series has mechanical fuel injection whereas all C44-9Ws built for BNSF have electronic fuel injection. I guess the rebuilt AC44C4M's have electronic fuel injection too.
I think the rebuilds so far got brand new FDL-16 engines, and I'd expect that these would have electronic fuel injection.
One reason that GE locomotives were rarely rebuilt in the past was that new engines were required to replace the existing engines which suffer from cracks in the cast crankcase after 15-20 years of service. By comparison, EMD units rarely required new crankcases, replacement of power assemblies often being all that was required.
The 960-1123 series has been largely stored at various locations around the system, notably in Barstow.
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