Time is running short for the B32-8 fleet. 11 units have just joined 9 that were already in storage and an additional retirement has happened which brings the total strickened to date to 5 (From a fleet that was intact until 1 was donated for preservation in 2013 with further retirements not happening until recently).
Only 20 units remain active and it has been rare to see any that were stored be reactivated. So I suspect by this time next year this model will be extinct outside of deadlines where they'll be parts donors for their 6 axle contemporaries that Norfolk Southern is rebuilding, until they're picked clean and scrapped.
Would be nice to see an extension of the Dash 8.5 program given their commonality with the C40-8 fleet that's being rebuilt, but a reprieve from the governor doesn't seem to be in the cards.
Well, it's back from the paint shop, with the other conversion. The paint has been modified slightly, with the front stripe color change most notable.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=560044&nseq=69
This is highly interesting! Another company rebuilding their Dash8/9 fleet, and the very first AC44C6M that I have seen.
Thank you for sharing this NorthWest!
NorthWest Well, it's back from the paint shop, with the other conversion. The paint has been modified slightly, with the front stripe color change most notable. http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=560044&nseq=69
Flamebonnet - must be an LNG flame because it is blue (notice tongue in cheek).
And still a Thoroughbred on the flanks - no beaver medallion or red paint in sight.
All in all a very interesting and well-thought-out schematic.
Thank you, Norfolk Southern!
kgbw49 Thank you, Norfolk Southern!
Actually, after looking at the Thoroughbred logo a bit more closely, I think it is probably more of a "Manebonnet" because the edge of the blue paint looks a lot like the mane of the Thoroughbred on the NS logo.
ML
I like the nickname Sonic Bonet that was given to it.
And a minor gripe about that photo. I know it is minor, but I wish when doing a publicity shot, they'd tuck the front hoses in, close the knuckle, and put the mirror out.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
GDRMCoThat is EXACTLY what it is, not sure why more people haven't picked up on that....
Because it is more fun to endlessly debate the colors?
Kind of odd to change livery for a rebuild group of locomotives.
longhorn1969 Kind of odd to change livery for a rebuild group of locomotives.
As reported the livery is not for the whole Group and may just be for the couple of units already painted that way, NS has done special schemes for experimental/prototype locomotives in the past;the battery electric roadswitcher they tested is an example that comes to mind..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
The entire NS GP33ECO fleet has its own special paint scheme, as do some of the slugs that work with them.
carnej1 longhorn1969 Kind of odd to change livery for a rebuild group of locomotives. As reported the livery is not for the whole Group and may just be for the couple of units already painted that way, NS has done special schemes for experimental/prototype locomotives in the past;the battery electric roadswitcher they tested is an example that comes to mind..
actually Chris Toth has reported that all of the AC44C6M's are to get the special paint scheme.
Bryan Jones
Since this isn't worth making a special thread for and this is the most recently active thread on NS motive power, does anyone know what the point is to the two GP38-2's that Norfolk Southern upgraded with turbocharged 16-645E3C engines?
Specifically, they retain their 2,000 horsepower rating so why the switch away from roots blowers in the first place or not uprating them to 3,000 hp now that they're turbocharged (Joining the 9 homebuilt GP40-2's that Norfolk Southern outshopped in 2008 that utilized GP38/GP38AC cores)?
I'm unclear as to what the advantage is here to this rebuilding?
Leo_Ames Specifically, they retain their 2,000 horsepower rating so why the switch away from roots blowers in the first place or not uprating them to 3,000 hp now that they're turbocharged (Joining the 9 homebuilt GP40-2's that Norfolk Southern outshopped in 2008 that utilized GP38/GP38AC cores)? I'm unclear as to what the advantage is here to this rebuilding?
It might provide a fuel consumption advantage, particularly if the units need to run at full power. A lot of engine power (and hence fuel) is needed to run a roots blower at full power and using a turbocharger gives you most of this back since the exhaust energy is being used. This applies regardless of the actual rating of the engine.
M636C
M636C Leo_Ames Specifically, they retain their 2,000 horsepower rating so why the switch away from roots blowers in the first place or not uprating them to 3,000 hp now that they're turbocharged (Joining the 9 homebuilt GP40-2's that Norfolk Southern outshopped in 2008 that utilized GP38/GP38AC cores)? I'm unclear as to what the advantage is here to this rebuilding? It might provide a fuel consumption advantage, particularly if the units need to run at full power. A lot of engine power (and hence fuel) is needed to run a roots blower at full power and using a turbocharger gives you most of this back since the exhaust energy is being used. This applies regardless of the actual rating of the engine. M636C
Are these units intended to be Slug Mothers? That would be an application where the extra HP might be useful...
Thanks M636C. Seems like an expensive way to save fuel though, which may explain why further conversions haven't happened.
Does NS have any high altitude operations? Can't think of anything for them where turbocharged power would be advantageous at higher altitudes to combat thin air out here in the East, but that doesn't mean it isn't the case and they perhaps had these in mind for a special assignment that calls for 2,000 HP roadswitchers?
Could it also have anything to do with emissions? I seem to recall years ago in Trains when the GP39-2 was suddenly seeing some decent sales, that it was superior in that regard at a time when there was some growing concerns over air quality for engine crews (Which produced 300 more horsepower with 4 fewer cylinders than this pair of GP38-2 rebuilds).
Carnej1, per NSDash9, their horsepower rating isn't upped and they're not equipped for slug operation.
If they had had their HP rating changed to 3,000 HP and been setup to be a slug mother as part of this conversion, it would've made perfect sense since there's clearly a need for GP40-2/slug combinations on the system.
A 16-645E3 doesn't cost much these days, and will bolt right down into a GP 38.
At 2000 HP you can use the existing radiator, whereas you'd need new radiators and an extra fan for 3000 HP.
The 8-710ECO costs around a million dollars, or so I've heard, maybe 2 million installed.
Possibly NS thought they'd see what advantages you'd get with a cheaper alternative to a GP22ECO. If you get most of the fuel saving at a small fraction of the rebuild cost and are able to meet Tier 0 (all you need as a rebuild) you are ahead on costs...
These GP38-2's were built with that engine, if I'm not mistaken. So all they're doing is basically what Union Pacific did with their turbocharged GP9's over 50 years ago, minus a bump in the horsepower rating.
Maybe we'll be seeing more conversions down the road when the price of diesel starts to rise again.
Leo_Ames Since this isn't worth making a special thread for and this is the most recently active thread on NS motive power, does anyone know what the point is to the two GP38-2's that Norfolk Southern upgraded with turbocharged 16-645E3C engines? Specifically, they retain their 2,000 horsepower rating so why the switch away from roots blowers in the first place or not uprating them to 3,000 hp now that they're turbocharged (Joining the 9 homebuilt GP40-2's that Norfolk Southern outshopped in 2008 that utilized GP38/GP38AC cores)? I'm unclear as to what the advantage is here to this rebuilding?
The 16-645E3C Turbocharged engine will bolt down to a GP38 underframe, and -2 etc. The largest change would be the inertial hatch and air filter box. Need a turbo AR10 generator, has different mounts for the Aux gen. Its a mis-conception online that railroads were switching to roots engines "for less maintenance"; roots engines are fuel hogs.
M636C A 16-645E3 doesn't cost much these days, and will bolt right down into a GP 38. At 2000 HP you can use the existing radiator, whereas you'd need new radiators and an extra fan for 3000 HP. The 8-710ECO costs around a million dollars, or so I've heard, maybe 2 million installed. Possibly NS thought they'd see what advantages you'd get with a cheaper alternative to a GP22ECO. If you get most of the fuel saving at a small fraction of the rebuild cost and are able to meet Tier 0 (all you need as a rebuild) you are ahead on costs... M636C
Keep in mind, the 8-710G3A-T2 is a package with a new high voltage cabinet, EM2000, EMDEC computer, new engineered radiators and after coolers (seperate circuit after cooling.) Thats what makes up that pricing.
I'd agree the NS could find fuel consumption data off the consist of two engines 16-645 MUI vs. 8-710 EUI.
Other railroads are obtaining data off a unique locomotive consist, some utilizing optimised components, some not using optimized components to see how much is actually gained with EUI, SCAC etc.
CCB is also part of the package.
NS has an emissions test cell on the property of JLS-which I'm sure could be set up for fuel economy testing.
Norfolk Southern's strategic plan that they released the other day confirms that their Dash 9 AC rebuilding program is still a go, despite their traffic downturn and the distractions that CPR is causing. It also for the first time confirms that they envision running their entire Dash 9 fleet through for the upgrade.
No word on the Dash 8.5 program and with almost all of the C40-8's being stored, I wonder if plans just might be changing there.
Any word on the NS 8900?
Also, there are 220 ES44DCs on the roster the oldest turning 12 this year. Will they be next in line for AC conversion?
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D.CarletonAlso, there are 220 ES44DCs on the roster the oldest turning 12 this year. Will they be next in line for AC conversion?
Speculating as a railfan, I believe so.
I suspect though that they will work their way up from the oldest Dash 9's. The ES44DC's have the newest electrical systems, so as long as they see merit in upgrading their C44-9/9W fleet in this manner, I'd expect to see this class be what they concentrate on first.
One has to assume though that an AC conversion for their ES44DC fleet is part of their gameplan as it stands today. But barring something like a fire that might push one to the head of the class, I wouldn't expect to see any be ran through for another 5 years or more.
Norfolk Southern has retired two C40-8's and are sending them to Cresson Steel for scrapping (The outfit that scrapped most of the high hood SD40's a few years ago).
With traffic down, NS getting by with the fleet in storage, and emission troubles with the Dash 8.5 prototypes, I'm afraid that it all doesn't bode well for the Dash 8.5 program. I suspect that they will soon be concentrating instead on AC conversions of Dash 9's.
Also, a post at NSDash9 from the owner says that the trucks are replaced with the AC44C6M conversions. Can they not accomodate AC traction motors? Also, whatever happened to the other AC44C6M prototypes from the other two bidders? Don't recall ever hearing of them being constructed and it seems clear that the GE program is already a go.
Add to that, someone is advertising a Dash 9 locomotive for what I can only describe as a ridiculously low price. No clue if this is for real, condition nor how many are available. If large lots of Dash 9s are comming to the second-hand market it may be to Norfolk Southern's advantage to buy and rebuild these and dispose of the Dash 8s.
Considering that NS announced a fleet downsizing and...the fact that 4000-4400 hp 6 motor AC's can replace 4000-4400 DC's on the basis of 2 to 3...it is not surprising that the Dash 8.5 program may be curtailed.
Given that the SD70ACeT4 is for, all intents and purposes, a NEW design...it would be hard to imagine NS commiting to a full-scale order until further experience is garnered from their (2) 'test' units....
CPM500
CPM500 Considering that NS announced a fleet downsizing and...the fact that 4000-4400 hp 6 motor AC's can replace 4000-4400 DC's on the basis of 2 to 3...it is not surprising that the Dash 8.5 program may be curtailed. Given that the SD70ACeT4 is for, all intents and purposes, a NEW design...it would be hard to imagine NS commiting to a full-scale order until further experience is garnered from their (2) 'test' units.... CPM500
Looking at the ET44 AC and the SD70ACe-T4 together, I wonder which one is more a new locomotive.
The new "GEVO" engine may not have any parts interchangeable with earlier versions, certainly not the crankcase or crankshaft, not the turbochargers, not the complete power assemblies, although the pistons and conecting rods might be the same...
Most of the heavy electrical equipment will be the same or similar on both Tier 4 locomotives, but I'd expect that both have basically new electronics.
GE have the advantage of being first and the fact that their locomotive looks much the same (although the radiators are a pretty obvious change...).
The biggest visible change in the EMD locomotive are the fabricated trucks, which have been used on many EMD export units for years. I'd expect that if you asked for cast trucks, they'd sell them to you...
The EMD engine is seen as new while the GE is thought of as "more of the same" but in fact they are both new.
Another C40-8 bites the dust.
I wonder if they'll convert the remaining Conrail units before calling it a day? I believe that all the Dash 8.5 rebuilds completed so far have been selected from that pool. And most of the handful of unrebuilt C40-8's out there running recently have been the ex Conrail locomotives, with just 1 stored at present.
The large bought-new NS fleet on the other hand largely was stored a while ago with just 1 or 2 stragglers showing as active recently. So the Conrail units would appear to have some favorable trait that has given them preference.
I assume that this program will have some worth even if this rebuilding program is curtailed soon since there's a lot of C40-8W's that are getting older and could be candidates for rebuilding in the future. Potentially a lot of what they're doing right now, if they can get it right, could be applied to those newer units if NS decides to rebuild rather than retire them in the next few years.
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