Hi all,
I'm going to be constructing a small model railroad featuring the Milwaukee Road set in Puget Sound during the mid 1980s (if that date rings alarm bells for you -- you'd be right to question it. But it's going to be proto-freelance , and 'my' MILW is a fighter). According to some people I've talked to, none of the Milwaukee Road's GP38-2s traveled onto lines west, so employing one as a branchline road switcher on my model is already something of a 'no-no.' The issue becomes how far to stretch the truth... there is an obvious difference between proto-freelance and complete fantasy, and I'm stuck trying to pick which engine that least stretches the truth.
As it's impossible to answer this looking at just the Milwaukee, my question revolves around general practice on all Class 1 western railroads during the 1980s. Did any major roads (UP, WP, SP, BN, CP, CN, etc). employ any significant number of non dynamic-equipped units (not even necessarily GP38-2s) west of the Rocky Mountains? The location of my fictional railroad is just north of Bellingham, WA, a localized area that rivals portions of the Midwest for its dramatic flatlands, so I'm don't think dynamic brakes would be required for any GP38-2 doing branchline work there. However, is it just too much of a stretch to think that any railroad would dispatch a unit without dynamic brakes into this otherwise very mountainous part of the country?
Thanks for any and all help.
I am familiar with the area you describe, the old BB&BC between Sumas and Bellingham.
On this line, Milwaukee stuck to mainly tired U25Bs,GP35s, SD9s and GP9s, but, especially near the end, anything could and did show up, including SDL39s, Fs, U33Cs(!) and U36Cs(!), U28Bs, SD10s, and just about anything the Milwaukee still had running. I'm not sure that any GP38-2s ever came north, as there were only 16, but there is a possibility, and it wouldn't be unlikely. The SDL39s didn't have dynamic brakes.The SD9s on the branch didn't have dynamic brakes, but the GP9s and GP35s did.
I'm sure you've seen what the track looked like in the '70s-some was the original BB&BC from 1897 (and still is, hidden unused in the weeds, where it is intact a short ways up the creek from Bellingham's waterfront), so U36Cs would be very heavy!
Milwaukee's GP38-2s did make it to the West Coast (there are pictures of them in Tacoma), and some of Milwaukee's GP38-2s did have dynamic brakes.
350-355 did not have dynamic brakes,
356-365 did.
S.L. Dixon has posted some great pictures from the era, I think you'll enjoy them.
http://stevereno.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=16577
http://stevereno.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=16339&Page=2
Also,
CN operated large amounts of non-dynamic units west of the Rockies, as they had a ruling grade of 1% on the Fraser River line.
GN and NP (as well as BN) operated non-dynamic GP9s/7s on locals and freights in the area.
I'm looking forward to hearing more about your model railroad- will it include the wooden truss bridge over the Nooksack that survived into the '80s?
Many thanks. I just don't want to spend the kind of dollars I'm looking at if the idea is completely unrealistic. The layout I am planning is very small (since we're in apartments at the moment), so this engine may literally wind up being all I operate on this model. The Milwaukee was renowned for having an exceedingly well-engineered route out west (though perhaps not as well-planned as the CN in BC -- it would be difficult to exceed that), but I don't know if it's reasonable to expect that they'd dispatch non-dynamic units to the left coast.
Northwest I'm going to do a double reply to your post because of the awkward way this forum is structured (I think you edited yours after I made my first reply, which has not yet gone through).
First of all, thank you for the photos, they are absolutely spectacular and extremely helpful. Do you by chance know what the ruling grade on the BB&BC was? I believe the line ran all the way to Glacier. Did it start to get steeper as it approached the town and got more into the mountains?
As for my model railroad, it's going to take some (significant) liberties with history, which is why I want to make other elements believable. Though the initial module is going to be small and portable (I am currently living in apartments), I hope it to one day serve as a branch on a railroad depicting the Milwaukee Road accessing Puget Sound - not via the Snoqualmie Pass - but instead Washington Pass along the route of modern day Rt. 9. It would also have a land-based connection to Bellingham, potentially running through Sedro-Woolley and Sudden Valley.
While this is a big change, I don't feel like it's out of line with some alterations made by other successful model railroads like Joe Fugate's Siskiyou Line (he completely relocated his main, too). And, of course, I'd depict the Milwaukee as a bit (but not much) healthier than it was there are the end -- surviving into the late 80s.
It's all in the planning stages at the moment, but this little layout will allow me to get the ball rolling at least on a small level.
NorthWest Milwaukee's GP38-2s did make it to the West Coast (there are pictures of them in Tacoma), and some of Milwaukee's GP38-2s did have dynamic brakes. 350-355 did not have dynamic brakes, 356-365 did. GN and NP (as well as BN) operated non-dynamic GP9s/7s on locals and freights in the area. I'm looking forward to hearing more about your model railroad- will it include the wooden truss bridge over the Nooksack that survived into the '80s?
Since I am not a big MILW fan, I would take Northwest's info and run with it. That is, could be either DB or not DB, or even mixed if more than one unit.
As to more general "practice" question, dynamic brakes are very helpful in mountain grade operation, which NP defined as 1.8% or better. For that reason GN, NP, SP and UP put dynamic brakes on every unit they bought for main line service, so non DB units were the exception. After a few years of main line service, the newest latest and greatest came along and GP 7 and 9 units got bumped down to be branch line power. In some of those assignments the DB was very useful, in others not. Non DB units were assigned to the flatland divisions and DB units assigned all over, since there were far more of them.
MILW dealt with their mountains with electrification. For that reason I would expect that MILW had relatively fewer DB equipped units than the others, not that I have done the research.
The Nooksack River bridge was a Howe Truss, a classic design that by the 1970's was entirely obsolete. MILW had at least one other one at the end, on the Olympic Peninsula just west of Sequim.
The W-O line of the GN was completed in 1914 with three Howe Truss bridges, some involving two or three spans. They were all gone by 1955, replaced by steel spans. A few survived between Oroville WA and Keremeos BC, a line that the GN tried to abandon in the 1930's for lack of traffic. These examples were "housed in" or covered to protect the structural members.
The MILW bridges were not covered. If you are going to model them I suggest you not cover them so you can show the details of the design. Well done a long Howe Truss could be the highlight of you layout. Plan to explain what it is, since very few viewers will know.
Mac
As the Milwaukee got increasingly financially desperate, they started to cut options on locomotives to reduce costs, one of which is dynamic brakes. So, most locomotives destined for the main had dynamics, until the end. (I am out of time, will post more later.)
Shrike ArghastThe layout I am planning is very small (since we're in apartments at the moment), so this engine may literally wind up being all I operate on this model.
If you are really worried about it, I would find a GP9 or GP35. If you like the GP38-2, go for it. It could've happened, as the SDL39s were built specifically for branch lines in the Midwest, (being of lighter weight), and yet they still made it to Bellingham. When they came closer and closer to bankruptcy, their heavy repair budgets declined, so instead of specifically planning on what units went where, they found the nearest thing that could get the train over the road, no matter the destination.
Shrike ArghastFirst of all, thank you for the photos, they are absolutely spectacular and extremely helpful.
These aren't mine, I'd drop thanks in the comment section of the photos.
Shrike Arghast. Do you by chance know what the ruling grade on the BB&BC was? I believe the line ran all the way to Glacier. Did it start to get steeper as it approached the town and got more into the mountains?
The line did reach Glacier, and had a ruling grade of at least 3% (not sure of the exact figure), enough that the McKeen Windsplitter that the BB&BC owned couldn't operate on the line. Instead of following the Nooksack through Deming, the line went through Peaceful Valley, splitting off just before Sumas. The line thus had to climb a steep pass, and didn't follow the water.
Shrike ArghastI hope it to one day serve as a branch on a railroad depicting the Milwaukee Road accessing Puget Sound - not via the Snoqualmie Pass - but instead Washington Pass along the route of modern day Rt. 9. It would also have a land-based connection to Bellingham, potentially running through Sedro-Woolley and Sudden Valley.
Interesting idea. The Bellingham and British Columbia made a halfhearted attempt to study extending east over the Cascades from Glacier. (I think you are looking for Rt. 20, as Rt.9 runs north-south.)
The Seattle and Northern Railway built from Anacortes east to Rockport (slightly east on Concrete) through Sedro Woolley. Great Northern absorbed it.
Also, NP had a line that ran from their north-south line to Sumas, from Acme to Bellingham on the opposite side of Lake Washington from Sudden Valley.
Good luck, I hope these tidbits are useful.
PNWRMNMThe Nooksack River bridge was a Howe Truss, a classic design that by the 1970's was entirely obsolete. MILW had at least one other one at the end, on the Olympic Peninsula just west of Sequim
Also isolated from the rest of the system. Fascinating, I didn't know that one other survived. It amazes me that a wood bridge survived that long (and would've lasted longer, had an arsonist not messed with it). Although, the ballast consisted entirely of grass and weeds, and the original rail was never replaced.
I have another quick question. Arguably one of the more common modifications to many locomotives during rebuilds that you read about was/is for a railroad to remove dynamic brakes. IC notably did it to a lot of their engines, as did Conrail to some GP9s, etc. My question is: why? Are DBs a maintenance headache or something?
The issue is cost of maintenance vs cost to remove and the operational benefit of having the capability. I can offer no realistic figures for any of these items.
Frankly I am surprised IC bought any units with DB, since it was probably the flattest Class I railroad in the country. It may be that the DB units were rare birds and only one shop stocked the repair parts which meant significant deadhead time to that shop. Such a situation would increase the cost to maintain the DB as opposed to a railroad where they were common and every shop had parts and was familiar with fixing them.
Another possibility is reassignment. Perhaps DB was useful on the the P&L line. Now IC buys second generation units for that line and reassigns the DB units to yard service where it is not needed. I suspect that was probably also the case with the PRR units. Once they got bumped off the territory between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, the value of DB was significantly reduced.
The real answers would require some inside knowledge, which I do not have.
Dynamic brakes require that the traction motors have the capability and circuitry to generate electricity. Plus, and extra fan and grille apparatus are needed, which makes the prime mover more difficult to access (and run hotter, too). For some service (flat areas, slow speeds, switching), this extra equipment costs more than it is worth, and it is removed. For capital rebuilds, so much of the locomotive is altered that eliminating them isn't as much of a problem. (Enough is altered that for tax purposes, the locomotive is considered "new".)
When the IC's fleet of GP7's and 9's, the vast majority of its frt power matured, graduating to trade-in status, 2nd hand market, or scrap, or, using the staff, resources and facilities of the IC's Paducah Shops to restore them.....IC chose its Paducah Shop's. They became a go-to place for rebuilt Geeps.....go-to by short lines and, thus Paducah ran out of root stock (IC's fleet having been rebuilt).....cast their net upon the waters for available service-worn Geeps to rebuild into their product, which did not include, hush....don't say "dynamic brake."
That's a reason dynamic brake was scrapped from the inbound "root stock, ,,,,, the reason offered, but I can't easily justify..
Probably there's a book.....about rebuilding, restoring, recapitalizing, trade-ins, salvaging, modifying, upgrading, buying re-manufactured locomotives....write-able for and to:
banker's, financial nerds, hedge fund mgrs., investment fund managers....I disclose,worked -on Wall St.-type, familial involvement in the present and past in two of those categories.
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