IDOT should get there hands slapped. EMD which is owned by CAT should have got the order.Why should my tax dollars be going to a non US company!!!! Yes I live in thiis cess pool state of Illinois where CAT is headquartered and they should of got the contract. I have no ties to CAT.
The Siemens/Cummins engines were over a $million cheaper per unit and they will be produced in California. IDOT picked an Illinois plant (Japanese consortium) to build the passenger cars. IDOT was not put in charge of the multi-state project to give the all the work to in-state plants.
http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20News/News%20Wire/2013/12/Illinois%20DOT%20announces%20intent%20to%20award%20diesel%20locomotive%20contract%20to%20Siemens.aspx
I've got to read these thread titles more carefully, I thought it said "IDIOT Selects..."
What the hell, it's late and I'm tired.
Those of us in or From Illinois will tell you that IDOT and IDIOT are synonyms.
As far as reported earlier Siemens Mobility in U.S. actually uses mostly U.S. components in their vehicles. This means they are not made in Europe, China, other Asian countries or Africa, but in U.S.A. For a multinational company like Siemens they can bring their expertise, way of designing and manufacturing and quality standards in despite where the vehicles are manufactured.
As the vehicles are made of U.S. parts in U.S.A. As a European I'm wondering what some of you are actually afraid of?
McKey As the vehicles are made of U.S. parts in U.S.A. As a European I'm wondering what some of you are actually afraid of?
I am afraid of locomotives like the Krauss-Maffei Diesel hydraulic locomotives from the 1960's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krauss-Maffei_ML_4000_C'C'. The Wikipedia article doesn't go into some of the details on the Locomotives Forum discussed here some time recently.
There must be an art to building a reliable Diesel for U.S. conditions as many U.S. manufacturers (Baldwin, FM, ALCo -- their later model Diesel engines were better, but they had a model that had serious problems) along with oversees manufacturers were not successful. There was for a long time only one successful builder, EMD, until GE, by dint of "deep corporate pockets" and perserverance in the market caught up and arguably surpassed EMD.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
What US operating entities are afraid of in dealing with European railroad products it that Europeans do not understand or appreciate the the operational differences between the railroads of Europe and those of North America. The operational differences are profound - show me the 20K ton coal train with DPU assistance traveling 2K miles from origin to destination in Europe. North American carriers survive on freight for private owners and investors. In Europe movement of freight is secondary to the movement of passengers - totally different operating environment.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The diesel engine is American by Cummins, which has been in business nearly 100 years. And this is a higher speed passenger engine, not a freight.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I would not go into 1960s trial that did not work out for SP then. The need for all driving wheels being the exact same size has been trashed even in Europe since.
Indeed very much has changed in Europe since 1960s...fortunately. And GE and EMD are importing locomotives to Europe, every year. GEs here are known mostly for being modern and extremely reliable while the EMDs very backward and reliable designs.
Paul Milenkovic McKey As the vehicles are made of U.S. parts in U.S.A. As a European I'm wondering what some of you are actually afraid of? I am afraid of locomotives like the Krauss-Maffei Diesel hydraulic locomotives from the 1960's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krauss-Maffei_ML_4000_C'C'. The Wikipedia article doesn't go into some of the details on the Locomotives Forum discussed here some time recently.
schlimmThe diesel engine is American by Cummins, which has been in business nearly 100 years.
Cummins powered a few switchers in the 1920s-1950s, usually below 44 tons.
I've travelled by Car Ferry being pushed along by extremely reliable Cummins Diesels, but they have struggled in the locomotive market.
I'm biased, I got a tour of the Sacramento Siemens plant by the guy in charge as they were building the new Amtrak units. He and they know what they are doing. And for the record, it was Siemens that made AC driven Freight locomotives a reality for EMD. So to say that they in general don't understand the US market is kind of missing the forest for the trees.
The only question here is whether the QSK itself and the electronics mated to it are up to the task.
YoHo1975 I've travelled by Car Ferry being pushed along by extremely reliable Cummins Diesels, but they have struggled in the locomotive market. I'm biased, I got a tour of the Sacramento Siemens plant by the guy in charge as they were building the new Amtrak units. He and they know what they are doing. And for the record, it was Siemens that made AC driven Freight locomotives a reality for EMD. So to say that they in general don't understand the US market is kind of missing the forest for the trees. The only question here is whether the QSK itself and the electronics mated to it are up to the task.
I have never expressed a concern about "buy American", U.S. content, or whether the Siemens locomotives employ workers on the correct side of the pond. Let's get a market for passenger trains in the U.S. and then worry about that issue.
I have never, ever suggested that Siemens doesn't understand the U.S. market, so I don't know which forest I am missing when I describe some trees.
I have never suggested that Siemens and their partner Cummins are lacking in corporate history or experience building things for the rialroad industry.
My concern is with the railroad environment combined with U.S. maintenance practices or with the expectation in the U.S. with the required level of maintenance. Even Talgo comes with a maintenance contract, which is an item of contention why a pair of Talgo train sets are parked in a warehouse in Milwaukee right now.
Even EMD hit a snag, they tell me, in their attempted switch to the 4-cycle H-engine, which they have backed off from and reverted to 710-based designs.
Doesn't every technology start out as 'new and untested' ?
The key to the new locos success will be how the field service function is set up. That would be training, tech support and warranty administration.
Having multiple major suppliers could make for some problems, unless Siemens organizes the field service function correctly.
CPM500
BaltACD McKey As the vehicles are made of U.S. parts in U.S.A. As a European I'm wondering what some of you are actually afraid of? d What US operating entities are afraid of in dealing with European railroad products it that Europeans do not understand or appreciate the the operational differences between the railroads of Europe and those of North America. The operational differences are profound - show me the 20K ton coal train with DPU assistance traveling 2K miles from origin to destination in Europe. North American carriers survive on freight for private owners and investors. In Europe movement of freight is secondary to the movement of passengers - totally different operating environment.
In other words you're predicting that Metra, etc. will experience serious difficulties with the coal trains they operate due to selecting European designed equipment?
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
carnej1 BaltACD McKey As the vehicles are made of U.S. parts in U.S.A. As a European I'm wondering what some of you are actually afraid of? d What US operating entities are afraid of in dealing with European railroad products it that Europeans do not understand or appreciate the the operational differences between the railroads of Europe and those of North America. The operational differences are profound - show me the 20K ton coal train with DPU assistance traveling 2K miles from origin to destination in Europe. North American carriers survive on freight for private owners and investors. In Europe movement of freight is secondary to the movement of passengers - totally different operating environment. In other words you're predicting that Metra, etc. will experience serious difficulties with the coal trains they operate due to selecting European designed equipment?
European equipment on Metra routes will operating in concert with the 20K Ton coal trains and the 10,000 foot Intermodal and Auto trains and all the other trains that operate on US railroads. Remember Metra is a tennent on most of the lines they operate on radiating from Chicago.
Murphy operates in US railroads, just as it was shown Murphy operates trains in Spain. US overspeed derailment, 7 dead. Spanish overspeed derailment 78 dead. Apples & Oranges - maybe, maybe not!
BaltACD carnej1 BaltACD McKey As the vehicles are made of U.S. parts in U.S.A. As a European I'm wondering what some of you are actually afraid of? d What US operating entities are afraid of in dealing with European railroad products it that Europeans do not understand or appreciate the the operational differences between the railroads of Europe and those of North America. The operational differences are profound - show me the 20K ton coal train with DPU assistance traveling 2K miles from origin to destination in Europe. North American carriers survive on freight for private owners and investors. In Europe movement of freight is secondary to the movement of passengers - totally different operating environment. In other words you're predicting that Metra, etc. will experience serious difficulties with the coal trains they operate due to selecting European designed equipment? European equipment on Metra routes will operating in concert with the 20K Ton coal trains and the 10,000 foot Intermodal and Auto trains and all the other trains that operate on US railroads. Remember Metra is a tennent on most of the lines they operate on radiating from Chicago. Murphy operates in US railroads, just as it was shown Murphy operates trains in Spain. US overspeed derailment, 7 dead. Spanish overspeed derailment 78 dead. Apples & Oranges - maybe, maybe not!
The majority of passenger equipment built and operated in the U.S and Canada in recent years is of foreign (European or Asian) design. The coaches in the Metro North derailment you mention were products of a Canadian firm (Bombardier) whose railroad equipment division is a former European company (Alstom). I don't know if you are saying the GE locomotive contributed to the survivability of the crash but it was on the tail end of the train so I'm unclear that it really was a major factor in the accident.
All passenger equipment operating in the US that shares trackage with freight equipment has to conform to FRA collision survival regulations which are far stricter than European requirements and for good reason.
I would be interested to see empirical evidence that older U.S designed equipment in commuter and Amtrak service is more crash worthy than newer foreign designed cars..
No relation between Bombardier & ALSTOM. The MN coaches actually owe their heritage to a P-S design.
carnej1 The majority of passenger equipment built and operated in the U.S and Canada in recent years is of foreign (European or Asian) design. The coaches in the Metro North derailment you mention were products of a Canadian firm (Bombardier) whose railroad equipment division is a former European company (Alstom). I don't know if you are saying the GE locomotive contributed to the survivability of the crash but it was on the tail end of the train so I'm unclear that it really was a major factor in the accident. All passenger equipment operating in the US that shares trackage with freight equipment has to conform to FRA collision survival regulations which are far stricter than European requirements and for good reason. I would be interested to see empirical evidence that older U.S designed equipment in commuter and Amtrak service is more crash worthy than newer foreign designed cars..
So long as equipment is designed to FRA standards - I don't care. However, there is a contingent that inhabits this forum that believes FRA standards are unnecessary and just add weight and foreign designs shoud run in North America without complying to such standards.
Well, who could disagree using local FRA standards?
And, the European crash norms (for EU member countries) were just revised in 2012 making lots of enormously bulky looking new rolling stock, so I think current generation rolling stock are pretty well protected even in Europe.
BaltACD So long as equipment is designed to FRA standards - I don't care. However, there is a contingent that inhabits this forum that believes FRA standards are unnecessary and just add weight and foreign designs shoud run in North America without complying to such standards.
This is so much in corporate culture, and that is why I like Siemens winning the 80 + 95 unit Vectron electric+diesel order for Finnish operator VR in the Nordic just last week. Vectron is a similar unit to ACS64 for U.S. markets. Looking at Siemens Mobility built rolling stock in Innotrans 2012 the standards of building were quite high compared with the many other players in competition, with only slightly higher price tag.
narig01On crash survivability. Remember the Metro North derailment in May. Kawasaki built M-8 's. The carbodies sustained a large amount of damage without killing anybody. 3 people hospitalized and a total of 72 injured. Yes ugly. Wrecks usually are. The cars are built to FRA standards. The standards that Alsthom had so much trouble with in building the Acela 's. Rgds IGN
The other year one of the very first Eurosprinters (predecessor of Vectron/ACS64) was part in one of the train crashes in Spain, with no external damage to the locomotive body appearing. Here is a picture of one of the similar units of Renfe.
The Spanish train was traveling at 121 mph, 50% faster than the MNRR train at 82 mph. Additionally, the trailing cars of the Spanish train hit a stationary object (wall) as well.
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