I've been out of North America for quite some time and being back have noticed that there are more safety cab locos more often and fewer standard cabs on the big mainlines (BNSF specifically). I can remember back to the 1990s when it was a good mix. Of course the small time short lines are still using standard cabs, or "spartan"(?) cabs as they might be called. I don't think I've seen a standard cab on lead in the last several months unless it was a short distance work train.
I just thought it was interesting and wanted to point it out. Anyone else notice it in their area? I'm in Kansas for now.
Jeff
Happy Birthday, Army.
yad sdrawkcab s'ti
I'm not sure that "safety cab" is actually an accurate name. That term was used by CNR when they introduced a new design, and it did have a number of safety features included.. For example, there were four windows across the front, the idea being that the window was stronger and less likely to break if each piece of glass was smaller. A number of other safety features were also designed into the nose.
I suspect that the current universal wide nose designs may have departed from CN's original safety cab features in at least some respects, perhaps many. Of course, another very common misnomer is to call them "wide cabs". The major difference is not the cab (whatever you call it), but the nose.
John
ironhorseman I've been out of North America for quite some time and being back have noticed that there are more safety cab locos more often and fewer standard cabs on the big mainlines (BNSF specifically). I can remember back to the 1990s when it was a good mix. Of course the small time short lines are still using standard cabs, or "spartan"(?) cabs as they might be called. I don't think I've seen a standard cab on lead in the last several months unless it was a short distance work train. I just thought it was interesting and wanted to point it out. Anyone else notice it in their area? I'm in Kansas for now. Jeff Happy Birthday, Army.
The main reason for that is that neither EMD nor GE offers the "Spartan cab" option on their new production locomotive models anymore. Norfolk southern was the last North American Class 1 to purchase new power with the older style cab...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
There are new rules on cab integrity too yes?
You'll still see spartan cabs in local and branch service. I live just north of Roseville Yard along the Valley line and there is a 2 unit (currently GP60s) local that is powered by spartans. UP also is in the process of rebuilding 500 or so SD40-2s. Which is nothing compared to the thousands of C44/45s and SD70Ms roaming around, but its not nothing.
IIRC the way GE and EMD got NS to stop Ordering the Spartan cabs was very Simple they made them the Extra Cost OPTION and guess what IT WORKED. Now with AC engines being the norm something tells me that CN will be faced with the same thing pay Extra to be the only Class one Still getting DC drives or start ordering AC traction Motors. Wonder what happens when say it costs 500K for DC traction when AC is free how fast you can get a RR to switch on an order.
Facinating, I think. As for the terminology I just used "safety cab" because that's what I remember most people calling them. True, it's mostly just the nose. When you google "safety cab" and click on images, out of the plethora of images the railroad related ones are all the new-nose ones, mostly which are model trains. At any rate, I just wanted to point out that it appears the standard/spartan cabs are dwindling fast from Class I mainline. I don't know at what exact rate, but it feels faster than it should be. I'll have to watch this close for the years to come.
ironhorseman Facinating, I think. As for the terminology I just used "safety cab" because that's what I remember most people calling them. True, it's mostly just the nose. When you google "safety cab" and click on images, out of the plethora of images the railroad related ones are all the new-nose ones, mostly which are model trains. At any rate, I just wanted to point out that it appears the standard/spartan cabs are dwindling fast from Class I mainline. I don't know at what exact rate, but it feels faster than it should be. I'll have to watch this close for the years to come.
The first wide cabs ordered by a U.S Class1 RR were SD60Ms ordered by UP with the first unit delivered in January,1989 which means that it has been a 22 and a half year progression for that style cab to become the industry standard.
As far as "feeling faster than it should be" I think I can safely say that feeling happens to all of us railfans, esp. when we get into our 30's and 40's..
carnej1 The first wide cabs ordered by a U.S Class1 RR were SD60Ms ordered by UP with the first unit delivered in January,1989 which means that it has been a 22 and a half year progression for that style cab to become the industry standard.
That's not quite true. The EMD DDA40X "Centennial" models built for UP from 1969 to 1971 were the first wide cab units produced. 47 examples were built for the UP.
The wide cabs were actually derived from the first "Cowl" units, the FP45 built for the Santa Fe in 1967 and 1968. These were followed by the F45, SDP40F and F40PH.
Mike
MJChittick carnej1: The first wide cabs ordered by a U.S Class1 RR were SD60Ms ordered by UP with the first unit delivered in January,1989 which means that it has been a 22 and a half year progression for that style cab to become the industry standard. That's not quite true. The EMD DDA40X "Centennial" models built for UP from 1969 to 1971 were the first wide cab units produced. 47 examples were built for the UP. The wide cabs were actually derived from the first "Cowl" units, the FP45 built for the Santa Fe in 1967 and 1968. These were followed by the F45, SDP40F and F40PH.
carnej1: The first wide cabs ordered by a U.S Class1 RR were SD60Ms ordered by UP with the first unit delivered in January,1989 which means that it has been a 22 and a half year progression for that style cab to become the industry standard.
True..and I guess the Canadian "safety cab" is the evolutionary link between the Cowl unit and the modern wide cabs.. we could also mention the GE "Crew quarter" BQ23-7s built for SCL..
The last spartan cabs purchased by NS was a group of SD70s. Everything after that has been wide body cabs. Thankfully, the only wide body cabs NS purchased with desk top controls was a group of 10 SD70Ms that were at the tail end of a UP order. We did inherit a large number of wide body cabs from Conrail with desk top controls. I live for the day when they'll all be retired...particularly the Dash 8-40CWs. As a matter of fact they can chunk all of the Dash 8 locos and it would be fine with me. The newer Dash 9s are all right and the newest ES44s are even better. If I were in the purchasing department I would buy SD70M-2s for manifest and intermodal service and ES44AC units for unit train service. I would rebuild all of the SD40-2s with the new ECO 12 cylinder 710 engines for yard and local service.
My favorite new cab units to run are UP C45ACCTE and the NS SD70M-2s. My favorite older spartan cab units are the SD40-2 and the GP60s. The GP60 was the perfect engine for intermodals during it's time...a true thoroughbred of a locomotive!
Tim
NS Locomotive Engineer
The new wide cab units are nice and quiet(except el-cheapo UP SD-70's) but the desktop control stand is just so perverse in every way, engineers(PE, Mechnical, not Loco) always want to mimic European junk only to find out it is junk( Krauss-Maffei, Deutz 6000hp engines, Sulzer,etc. etc.) You cannot reach the controls because the seat stops at the edge of the desk - duh!, and you can't cross your legs because they put a sloping underside that prevents it - not comfy for 12 hours. Thankfully they have returned to partial sanity by returning to the conventional stand - but the mech. engineers have to justify their jobs, so they moved it farther from the window so you can't reach the controls and get your head out the window to watch for hand signals(weren't we just there?) and with every new model year they move the headlight switch and gauges so you can't find them in the dark - oh yeah the new sd-70 doesn't illuminate the swiches in the dark - saved a .14 cent bulb or two. I love old standard cab GE's and EMD's because for 30 years almost every control switch and lever stroke is identical - pitty they can't leave perfection alone.
monon99 The new wide cab units are nice and quiet(except el-cheapo UP SD-70's) but the desktop control stand is just so perverse in every way, engineers(PE, Mechnical, not Loco) always want to mimic European junk only to find out it is junk( Krauss-Maffei, Deutz 6000hp engines, Sulzer,etc. etc.) You cannot reach the controls because the seat stops at the edge of the desk - duh!, and you can't cross your legs because they put a sloping underside that prevents it - not comfy for 12 hours. Thankfully they have returned to partial sanity by returning to the conventional stand - but the mech. engineers have to justify their jobs, so they moved it farther from the window so you can't reach the controls and get your head out the window to watch for hand signals(weren't we just there?) and with every new model year they move the headlight switch and gauges so you can't find them in the dark - oh yeah the new sd-70 doesn't illuminate the swiches in the dark - saved a .14 cent bulb or two. I love old standard cab GE's and EMD's because for 30 years almost every control switch and lever stroke is identical - pitty they can't leave perfection alone.
Were the desktop control stands really adapted from European designs? I've seen pictures of European locomotive cabs with desktop controls but they were all very different than the North American style setup...
When I worked for CN in Saskatchewan we called them comfort cabs. We were to lead a comfort cab if possible, especially in winter.
Barry Williams Mission BC
carnej1 monon99: The new wide cab units are nice and quiet(except el-cheapo UP SD-70's) but the desktop control stand is just so perverse in every way, engineers(PE, Mechnical, not Loco) always want to mimic European junk only to find out it is junk( Krauss-Maffei, Deutz 6000hp engines, Sulzer,etc. etc.) You cannot reach the controls because the seat stops at the edge of the desk - duh!, and you can't cross your legs because they put a sloping underside that prevents it - not comfy for 12 hours. Thankfully they have returned to partial sanity by returning to the conventional stand - but the mech. engineers have to justify their jobs, so they moved it farther from the window so you can't reach the controls and get your head out the window to watch for hand signals(weren't we just there?) and with every new model year they move the headlight switch and gauges so you can't find them in the dark - oh yeah the new sd-70 doesn't illuminate the swiches in the dark - saved a .14 cent bulb or two. I love old standard cab GE's and EMD's because for 30 years almost every control switch and lever stroke is identical - pitty they can't leave perfection alone. Were the desktop control stands really adapted from European designs? I've seen pictures of European locomotive cabs with desktop controls but they were all very different than the North American style setup...
monon99: The new wide cab units are nice and quiet(except el-cheapo UP SD-70's) but the desktop control stand is just so perverse in every way, engineers(PE, Mechnical, not Loco) always want to mimic European junk only to find out it is junk( Krauss-Maffei, Deutz 6000hp engines, Sulzer,etc. etc.) You cannot reach the controls because the seat stops at the edge of the desk - duh!, and you can't cross your legs because they put a sloping underside that prevents it - not comfy for 12 hours. Thankfully they have returned to partial sanity by returning to the conventional stand - but the mech. engineers have to justify their jobs, so they moved it farther from the window so you can't reach the controls and get your head out the window to watch for hand signals(weren't we just there?) and with every new model year they move the headlight switch and gauges so you can't find them in the dark - oh yeah the new sd-70 doesn't illuminate the swiches in the dark - saved a .14 cent bulb or two. I love old standard cab GE's and EMD's because for 30 years almost every control switch and lever stroke is identical - pitty they can't leave perfection alone.
The idea of it, yes. The execution, no. A big part of the problem is that it's really just a regular old control stand's mechanical controls turned on their side. e.g. the reverser, throttle switches, etc. That's what required the sloping "knee banger" on the underside of the desk.
A REALLY BIG urban legend surrounding desk top controls is that they were the dream of the builders sold to the RRs without any consultation of the operating crafts. NOTHING COULD BE FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH. The first cab with desktop controls was GE 809, a wide cab installed on GE B40-8 8, 808. This locomotive was thoroughly vetted by the general chairmen of both operating crafts prior to an order being placed by any road. It was generally agreed, by both labor and mgt at that time that the cab arrangement was a step forward - even though it cost more to manufacture.
Maybe the general chairmen needed to spend more time with their people and less time in their offices?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
One thing you need to consider to understand European locomotive cab design, is the working schedule of their Drivers (Engineers). For Swiss Drivers the majority will know their work schedule up to six months in advance. The law allows no more than 4 hours uninterrupted at the controls without a break , with break typically meaning completely off the locomotive where he or she can access refreshments and use a proper bathroom. Followed by a further four hours of running. Maximum time at the controls is 8 hours and no more than 8 and a half hours on duty. In Switzerland something like 98% of all work assignments are out and back in their tour of duty.
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