Ex-Southern Railroad FP-7's, 6143 and 6147, now owned and operated by Stone Mountain Railroad at the Stone Mountain Memorial Park in Georgia is undergoing a major rebuild of the two first generation EMD's. Work is being performed by Dixie Locomotive Services of Cropwell, Alabama at the Stone Mountain Railroad shops.
When completed the locomotives will have had their 567B prime movers replaced with freshly rebuilt 645E's. New generators, aux gens, air compressors, and Dash 2 electrical controls. Entirely new full 26L brake systems are being installed as well as console-type control stands are being installed. Cab interiors are being rebuilt and air conditioning is also being installed. New trucks are being installed with D77 traction motors. For electrical power for the train sets used at the mountain diesel powered electrical generators are being installed in the back end of the locomotives in the space where the steam generators once were mounted. The ditch lights are recessed in the lower part of the nose, mu connections have been lowered as well, and the nose doors have been removed. Both locomotives will receive new paint schemes that hearken back to the Central of Georgia Railroad design, but with colors unique to Stone Mountain Railroad. The repowering of these locomotives will take them from their original 1500hp to 2000hp. 6143 should be out of the shop and on the trains at the park by March 1, 2011 with 6147 being finished in April, 2011.
Wonder why they're going with console type control stands. I thought those were pretty much extinct these days in new products from EMD and GE and major rebuilding programs after class 1's finally realized that engine crews largely prefer the traditional control stand layout. So I'm surprised to see them being used here.
They're going to look ugly without nose doors just like Union Pacific's executive E's. I don't see why they just can't weld them shut with a small warning on both sides of the door in order to preserve their appearance. A EMD bulldog nose just looks odd without the nose door.
Glad to see them being rebuilt with an eye towards operating them long into the future. Would've been neat to see them rebuilt through EMD's ECO program, but at least they won't have that turbocharged sound with what they went with.
That is good news! The Stone Mountain Railroad has been going downhill for years. Don't know why they'd need the HP upgrade. They never get beyond notch 2 or 3 even running uphill away from the station now.
Next, they need to do something with those ratty ex-LIRR coaches.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The primary reason the console type control stand is being used is cost. The desktop control stands are about $50K. The control stands being put in these two FP7's are from SD45's and much less expensive as an upgrade.
The nose doors were both a safety issue and a maintenance issue. Esthetics was also an issue, and we decided to get rid of the doors.
The primary reason for the upgrade on the locomotives to 645E blocks is that the 567 power assemblies and related parts are getting too expensive to purchase when the 645 blocks are the same blocks as a 567, but the power assemblys and related parts are much more abundant and easier to obtain and much less costly as a result. It was purely an economic decision not necessarily a need for more HP. However, you are wrong on your assessment of what it takes to run uphill at the mountain.
We pull out of Memorial Station right into the teeth of a 3% grade which requires us to go to run 5 or 6 to maintain the 12 to 15 MPH desired speed. The desire to eventually obtain newer full size coaches also played a hand in wanting some more HP in our locomotives. The grades on the backside of the mountain range from 2 to 2.5% and we will be turning the trains to run clockwise either later this year or next year. It is a longer grade on the backside of the mountain with more severe curvature which will call for run 5 or 6 to make the grade.
Rebuilding an F-unit with the ECO would be interesting, though I can only imagine a class 1 like NS or UP actually doing it. IIRC, several FL9's were extensively rebuilt with a 12-710 and a raised roof-line to accommodate it and AC-traction. I guess it cost several million apiece to rebuild them and they’re no longer in service anyway. A rebuilt F-unit with an ECO would only need an 8-710 and standard DC-traction with a rating of around 2,000hp.
Thanks for clearing things up Bill, this project fascinates me and I was confused by some of the earlier comments. I can now see the logic in the decisions and look forward to seeing the results of all this work.
I look forward to seeing brand new 50+ year old locos earning their keep!
Hey Bill,
I'm glad to hear about this rebuild as there are some F-units in museums up here in New England that could benefit from such a thing. It would be nice if a precedent could be set for more more old cab units to be rehabbed/rebuilt in the future.
I have a couple questions about the RR itself though,
1) will the FP's be run as a pair or on separate trains
2) what happened to the two steam engines that were on the RR
and 3) is the connection to the "outside world" from the SMRR still intact/serviceable and will/has it been used to move the FP's in/out?
Thanks,
Pete
You clearly know more about this than I do, but I'm surprised by a few things and hoped you'd clarify.
You're sourcing desktop control stands from SD45's? Who ever rebuilt SD45's with modern console desktop units to replace their standard AAR control stands? Or are we using the same term for two different things?
And clearly a ECO rebuild was out of the question (I was just thinking how it would be neat to see a classic F unit be rebuilt to fully modern standards inside), but 3 million for a ECO rebuild? It doesn't even cost 3 million to purchase the latest 6 axle AC product from GE or EMD, unless perhaps you're just buying a handful. If you go digging online, you'll find that things like ES44AC's and SD70Ace's usually go for around $2.2 million if the company is ordering several dozen.
So that certainly can't be accurate. The only number I've found is $1 million, but I assume there's a lot of variance involved with how much engineering EMD has to do, how many different types of units are involved, and how many rebuilds are being done. But 3 million? EMD offers to turn a GP7/9 into a GP22ECO (Which they did as a demonstrator, although no one has yet had them rebuild a 50's Geep yet into one) for what we have to assume is a competitive price (approximately 1 million dollars if message boards are to be believed), So it's hard to imagine a F unit with similar innards to a Geep being 3 times as much.
You got rid of the doors for aesthetics and not just over safety? To the normal person, it doesn't matter if there is a nose door or not. But to the railfan, they're actually less attractive aesthetically when the nose door is removed and bondoed over like Union Pacific did to their E units. Seems easy enough to ensure safety and stop maintenance cost by just permanently securing it shut. You stop it being a safety issue, you stop having to maintain it, yet the aesthetics of the locomotive aren't harmed in the process from the outside.
Leo, I will attempt to answer your questions as best I can.
We are replacing the 1950's layout of the control stand and brake stand with the control stands that have come out of SD45's. This was determined to be the preferred layout for our crews. While the cab of the FP-7 lends itself to a desktop-type control layout, the cost is too prohibitive for our operation.
There were several reasons the 645E was chosen was as the preferred upgrade for our rebuild. The EMD ECO uses a 710 which is a completely different block than a 567/645 block. The 645 bolts up to the frame in the FP-7 using the same bolt holes as the 567 as the blocks of both are identical. The 645 just has a larger bore to the cylinders. Thus, no changes have to be made to location of the other rotating equipment (ie, main generator and air compressor). Not being a type of railroad that falls under any of the current EPA upgrade guidelines we did not have to, nor never did consider the need to be concerned with going "green" with the upgraded prime movers. The newer, and completely rebuilt 645E will be a vastly more efficient engine than the 60 year old 567BC diesels that our two locomotives possessed.
The parts and availablility for the 645E is abundant and far less expensive than exists in the marketplace for the 567BC. The rebuilt 645 uses the latest types of gasket and seals which will eliminate the problem of oil leaks that existed with the worn out seals and gaskets of the 567's that were in our locomotives and could not be similarly replaced.
As for the doors, it still was a choice made according to our preferrences. I repeat the statement I made previously: The nose doors were both a safety issue and a maintenance issue. Esthetics was also an issue, and we decided to get rid of the doors. We like not having the doors. The look that we have obtained is extremely similar to the NS Executive F units, and we actually used their design as a pattern to work from in our case. That was our choice.
No one can appreciate the challenge of tearing into a 60 year old locomotive that is basically held together by rust, wiring that is brittle to the touch, with everything soaked in oil and completely upgrading and updating all the different systems that make the thing work, and do it at as low a cost as possible, until you actually do it. Most everything has gone as planned, but there have been many things that did not. Age, corrosion, rust, sand, water, oil, and 60 years of continual use introduced a very special type of demon that has been at times difficult to remove. However, we know that we will have a locomotive that will be able to serve us well for the next 15 to 20 years with minimal problems and provide our crews a pleasing environment to work, safely and proudly. Our goal was not to do a historical restoration, but a practical and economical rebuild that would preserve as much of the original look as possible given our specific needs and desires. We hope that the majority of people will appreciate our efforts and enjoy the results.
Pete,
One of the problems that museums face, and some scenic railroad operations is, of course, limited financial resources to much more than maintain the locomotives to very minimum standards. The other is having people experienced enough to diagnose problems accurately and then fix them correctly. One of the blessings we have is that the man who is in charge of our rebuild has been working on the first and second generation diesel power for over forty years. He knows this stuff like the back of his hand! It's been amazing to work with him and be able to learn so much from his vast knowledge of what makes these wonderful machines work and how to deal with their individual idiosyncrasies!
I had the pleasure of being one of the crew members of the New Georgia Railroad and both working on and running the FP's and the E's (as well as A&WP 290!) for a period of four years and wish that Donnie had been with us in those days!
The plan is to rotate the two FP7's along with our GP7 running them singly a month at a time. This will allow us to extend the time between the 92 day inspections. Only during the high attendance days we will run two trains to handle the crowds.
The two steam locomotives (#60 and #110) are still on property. Plans are to eventually put one or both back into operation, but that will not happen until the diesels are rebuilt, the train is rebuilt and repainted, and some other projects are completed.
The connection was removed several years ago. It could be restored some time in the future, but at this time that is not a priority.
Bill
Bill290Denn Pete, One of the problems that museums face, and some scenic railroad operations is, of course, limited financial resources to much more than maintain the locomotives to very minimum standards. The other is having people experienced enough to diagnose problems accurately and then fix them correctly. One of the blessings we have is that the man who is in charge of our rebuild has been working on the first and second generation diesel power for over forty years. He knows this stuff like the back of his hand! It's been amazing to work with him and be able to learn so much from his vast knowledge of what makes these wonderful machines work and how to deal with their individual idiosyncrasies! I had the pleasure of being one of the crew members of the New Georgia Railroad and both working on and running the FP's and the E's (as well as A&WP 290!) for a period of four years and wish that Donnie had been with us in those days! The plan is to rotate the two FP7's along with our GP7 running them singly a month at a time. This will allow us to extend the time between the 92 day inspections. Only during the high attendance days we will run two trains to handle the crowds. The two steam locomotives (#60 and #110) are still on property. Plans are to eventually put one or both back into operation, but that will not happen until the diesels are rebuilt, the train is rebuilt and repainted, and some other projects are completed. The connection was removed several years ago. It could be restored some time in the future, but at this time that is not a priority. Bill
Wow! Thanks for all the neat information! Sounds like a good plan to go with 645E engines and EMD control stands/26L brakes. How is the power cabling?
Are the GP9s going to get similarly repainted or will they stay green?
I've got my annual Stone Mountain parking pass. Hope to see the Fs when they are in service again. Any chance you could post here when they are?
Thanks for the answers Bill,
sounds like you have a great program going down there. I whish I could say when I'll be able to get down there to see it again, hopefully sometime soon.
It's good to know the steam engines are still there and that they may run again, but yes, it makes sense to fix the diesels first! Running a steam program these days is an expensive proposition and requires time and expertise on hand before a wheel can even turn.
I wish Y'all best of luck!
The GP-7 has been repainted and rebuilt with new power assemblies for the 567 prime mover, rewired, and upgraded with a full 26L brake system too. The GP-9 will be used for switching only, as it is in the worst shape of the four, and probably will not last too much longer. The frame is bent and twisted from a accident in regular service (could be why it was in the scrap yard when Stone Mountain purchased it back in 1993.) and the wiring is brittle and subject to shorts and grounds all the time.
The two FP-7's and the GP-7 are all wired for MU and could, if needed, be MU'd together. That would be 5500 HP of power for a train that only needs about 1200 HP when everything we have is coupled together! We might do that once, just for fun, though!
6143 should make its debut in two to three weeks as far as the public presentation is concerned. I will post when the date is established.
Thank you! I am really looking forward to boiling some water in the not too distant future. That is where the bulk of my experience is... with steam. I am a veteran of the Southern Railroad Steam Excursions, American Freedom Train, and New Georgia Railroad. So getting a steam locomotive in operation at Stone Mountain is a definite goal we are moving towards!
I hear ya Bill,
I'm working at The Valley RR here in CT and fixin to boil some water of my own soon. We're rebuilding a Chinese built 2-8-2 to resemble a New Haven RR locomotive and we expect it to be running by about mid-summer. I've been volunteering on that project and several others now for close to 2 years and I'll be starting there as a paid employee this season.
Steam is where it's at!
I remember reading about the NGRR when it started back in the 80's and always wanted to get down there to see the operations. Alas, it dried up before I could make it down there.
Rebuilt prime mover, updated micro controls, new electricals now make them FP7-3s correct?
Cosmo706 We're rebuilding a Chinese built 2-8-2 to resemble a New Haven RR locomotive and we expect it to be running by about mid-summer. I've been volunteering on that project and several others now for close to 2 years and I'll be starting there as a paid employee this season.
We're rebuilding a Chinese built 2-8-2 to resemble a New Haven RR locomotive and we expect it to be running by about mid-summer. I've been volunteering on that project and several others now for close to 2 years and I'll be starting there as a paid employee this season.
Which type of Chinese 2-8-2 are you rebuilding... An SY or a JS, or another type?
The JS has an external main steam pipe which would make the job harder (although this was a feature of the early Lima 2-8-4s and some NYC 2-8-2s)
M636C
The locomotive we are working with started it's life some 20+ years ago as a Chinese SY.
When we are finished, it will be a "J-1a."
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