If SP and DRG thought tunnel motors were such a good deal, why didn't anyone else? It would seem like the northern transcon lines, with their long tunnels would have had the same exhaust problems. You would think that GN,NP,MWK,CP and CN would have the same issues, and seen the tunnel motors as the answer.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Southern Pacific subsidiary COTTON BELT had 94 tunnel motors and not one tunnel.
IIRC none of the tunnels on Donner were Ventilated and that was a long hard pull there both ways then yopu have Techaphai and the other moutains the SP went thru and most of the tunnels had no Power Ventilation on them. On the Rio Grande except for Moffat none of their tunnels were Ventialted either so they needed the advantages the TM offered also.
Most of the Northern Transcons their Major passes had at most one tunnel always Ventialted. On the CP especially on Rogers pass the tunnels are Ventilated big time to the point they had to adjust the levels to keep the coal and wood chips for blowing out of the cars.
SSW9389 Southern Pacific subsidiary COTTON BELT had 94 tunnel motors and not one tunnel.
edbenton IIRC none of the tunnels on Donner were Ventilated and that was a long hard pull there both ways then yopu have Techaphai and the other moutains the SP went thru and most of the tunnels had no Power Ventilation on them. On the Rio Grande except for Moffat none of their tunnels were Ventialted either so they needed the advantages the TM offered also. Most of the Northern Transcons their Major passes had at most one tunnel always Ventialted. On the CP especially on Rogers pass the tunnels are Ventilated big time to the point they had to adjust the levels to keep the coal and wood chips for blowing out of the cars.
It would be interesting to find out just how much time that Cotton Belt's tunnel motors actually spent on their own trackage.
As far as the ventilation issue is concerned, GN installed a ventilation system in Cascade Tunnel (all 7.79 miles of it) as part of the de-electrification project.
Murphy Sidingedbenton IIRC none of the tunnels on Donner were Ventilated and that was a long hard pull there both ways then yopu have Techaphai and the other moutains the SP went thru and most of the tunnels had no Power Ventilation on them. On the Rio Grande except for Moffat none of their tunnels were Ventialted either so they needed the advantages the TM offered also. Most of the Northern Transcons their Major passes had at most one tunnel always Ventialted. On the CP especially on Rogers pass the tunnels are Ventilated big time to the point they had to adjust the levels to keep the coal and wood chips for blowing out of the cars. It kind of makes you wonder, why they didn't just ventilate the tunnels better?
There were a lot of tunnels on the Donner Pass route, installing ventilation for all of them could get expensive, and it was probably a lot cheaper to pay a bit more for the "tunnel" mod. There are also several tunnels on the D&RGW's lines besides Moffat that were unventilated. Also note that the ventilated tunnels were typically much longer than the ones on Donner Pass, e.g. Cascade and Moffat.
Note also that the tunnels mods were only applied to the SD-40 and SD-45 (well the -2 versions of both), due to the marginal cooling capacity of those units (marginal for the SP and D&RGW).
Murphy Siding SSW9389 Southern Pacific subsidiary COTTON BELT had 94 tunnel motors and not one tunnel. I forgot about that little detail. Thanks for pointing that out. Did they use those on Cotton Belt's mountain tunnels?
The Cotton Belt tunnel motors spent more time on Donner and Shasta than anyplace else. From what I know about the deal, the CB units were just an easy way of the SP purchasing more units and they were used all over the SP system where tunnels existed.
CZ
CZ I think that was only true for the first half year or so of tunnel motor operation. After there were enough tunnel motors in the Roseville pool they were operated system wide on the longest runs possible. I have photographs and spot records of tunnel motors in TEXAS during 1972-1974 so I know they were not tunnel territory exclusive.
Ed
CAZEPHYR Murphy Siding SSW9389 Southern Pacific subsidiary COTTON BELT had 94 tunnel motors and not one tunnel. I forgot about that little detail. Thanks for pointing that out. Did they use those on Cotton Belt's mountain tunnels? The Cotton Belt tunnel motors spent more time on Donner and Shasta than anyplace else. From what I know about the deal, the CB units were just an easy way of the SP purchasing more units and they were used all over the SP system where tunnels existed. CZ
Murphy Siding If SP and DRG thought tunnel motors were such a good deal, why didn't anyone else? It would seem like the northern transcon lines, with their long tunnels would have had the same exhaust problems. You would think that GN,NP,MWK,CP and CN would have the same issues, and seen the tunnel motors as the answer.
I believe this was an extra-cost option and so you had to convince skeptical bean-counters it was worthwhile. It clearly was not for CN, who had a low-level crossing through the mountains with few tunnels of any length and easy grades. CP did modify two SD40-2s with shrouds as an experiment to simulate the tunnel motor arrangement, but apparently did not see enough difference to warrant progressing further.
Perhaps your reference to "northern transcon lines" also partly explains why not. With generally lower ambient temperatures, the cooling systems would not be overstressed as often. Therefore operating headaches were not common enough to mandate the extra expense that reduced, but not solved, the problem.
John
The Clinchfield ordered SD45T-2s,but before delivery,was merged into the Seaboard System.Seabord changed the order to straight SD45s.
cx500 Murphy Siding If SP and DRG thought tunnel motors were such a good deal, why didn't anyone else? It would seem like the northern transcon lines, with their long tunnels would have had the same exhaust problems. You would think that GN,NP,MWK,CP and CN would have the same issues, and seen the tunnel motors as the answer. I believe this was an extra-cost option and so you had to convince skeptical bean-counters it was worthwhile. It clearly was not for CN, who had a low-level crossing through the mountains with few tunnels of any length and easy grades. CP did modify two SD40-2s with shrouds as an experiment to simulate the tunnel motor arrangement, but apparently did not see enough difference to warrant progressing further. Perhaps your reference to "northern transcon lines" also partly explains why not. With generally lower ambient temperatures, the cooling systems would not be overstressed as often. Therefore operating headaches were not common enough to mandate the extra expense that reduced, but not solved, the problem. John
SP had pretty much a completely different operation of its machines than any other railroad: work its EMDs past the absolute limit. On Donner, their conventional SD45s were almost always in run 8 going about 10 mph and obviously, they put out a lot of exhaust in those tunnels and snow sheds. As a result, their radiators would draw in hot, useless air and they sometimes could hardly get them to the top of The Hill without them going belly-up. So SP told EMD to make a very similar design to GE's U-Boats' cooling systems; then the tunnel motor design was produced. If SP hadn't operated its other units to the MAX, it's possible that they wouldn't have even purchased them.
Well I lived on the Golden State in SW KS. I saw tunnel motors on everything, mainly the drag freights. No tunnels here. They would come in with 6 to 8 of em, all running. It used to be quite the sight. They would find there way onto the stack trains occasionaly but mainly the freights.
I had seen them in the midwest on the Mendota sub of BN growing up. Also on the Barstow sub on occasion. Once I got to railroading I had a few in consists over the years.
IIRC besides Clinchfield wasnt there another railroad in the east that wanted them?
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
From what I understand about the tunnel motors is that do to the long tunnels that SP and DRGW had, they had to come up with a solution for the locomotives over heating. the cooling fans don't draw air into the radiators for cooling. The fans draw cool air in through the radiators and then push the warm air out. On most locomotives the air intake is next to the radiators. And that is the problem the SP and DRGW wanted worked out. So EMD made the tunnel motors with the air intakes lower on the carbody so the cooling fans would draw in cool air that would be lower to the ground.
Hope it helps.
To Espeefoamer,
Clinchfield was the other railroad that had planned to purchase EMD SD45T-2's for their lines, but the order was cancelled way before the company was folded into SBD. Instead they ordered several SD45-2's and later on their GP7's or GP9's were rebuilt into GP16's.
In reality, no matter what kind of locomotive it is, it will still overheat if it's in a tunnel for a long period of time. The D&RGW ordered some sort of water spray and high-pressure radiator caps on their SD40T-2's. The SD50's of 1984 were suppose to exceed the T-2's, but for some reason, they were somewhat even. However the design managed to live on export designs (to make them universal) such as the GT26CW-2.
"Look away...look south"
Evergreen24 In reality, no matter what kind of locomotive it is, it will still overheat if it's in a tunnel for a long period of time. The D&RGW ordered some sort of water spray and high-pressure radiator caps on their SD40T-2's.
In reality, no matter what kind of locomotive it is, it will still overheat if it's in a tunnel for a long period of time. The D&RGW ordered some sort of water spray and high-pressure radiator caps on their SD40T-2's.
spokyone Evergreen24 In reality, no matter what kind of locomotive it is, it will still overheat if it's in a tunnel for a long period of time. The D&RGW ordered some sort of water spray and high-pressure radiator caps on their SD40T-2's. Interesting fact. Many years ago, my family had campground reservations in Idyllwild California. Then SoCal was hit with record high temperatures. I knew my old van would overheat going up the mountain, pulling a travel trailer. So I rigged up a windshield washer motor and a spray bar in front of the radiator, and hooked it up to a gallon water jug. When the gauge went into the red, I turned on the switch for just a few seconds. Bingo. Temp returned to normal. I probably used less than a pint of water during the two hour climb. Seems to me that approach would have worked very well in tunnels.
Yep. And ESPEE would have needed to have a tank car(or retired Steam tender) behind every locomotive to cool down the 20 cylinder 645's for the entire trip!
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
actually the Clinchfield was looking to order SD40T-2's, not SD45T-2's. This was in the late 70's after production of the 45 series had ceased. Supposedly the order was to have been for 14-16 units but the order was never firmed up as the railroad became part of the Family Lines System. The railroad ended up with standard SD40-2's in Family Lines paint.
Bryan Jones
W&LE in Ohio has a pair of former Rio Grande units and actually has a number of tunnels on the old P&WV line into Pittsburgh
Evergreen24 However the design managed to live on export designs (to make them universal) such as the GT26CW-2.
However the design managed to live on export designs (to make them universal) such as the GT26CW-2.
EMD had cold side fan export units years before the T2 was developed for North America. The reason the export units get high radiators with fans underneath is the need to have the radiators higher than the water tank which has to be in a particular relation to the engine top deck and above the water pumps. This is so the radiators will drain to the water tank when the engine is shut down to prevent freezing and to vent the air from the system to the tank. Note the switcher locos since the first SW/SC units had the radiators at the top of the hood for this reason.
To Bryan Jones:
Even though the Clinchfield wound up with under the Family Lines System banner, they only purchased 5 SD40-2's instead of SD40T-2's when the Seaboard Coast Line and Louisville & Nashville were stocking up on SD40-2's, GP38-2's, C30-7's and general improvements after the ICC granted them a 20% (or more) rate increase on shipping coal for customers. It seems that CRR wanted a part of the share (as well as Georgia, Atlanta & West Point, but not Western Railway of Alabama) and ended up purchasing SD40-2's and GP38-2's (GA and A&WP also purchased GP38-2's).
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