Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
See the "Ugly Locomotives" topic...
Seriously though, they seemed to be an "also-ran" type of locomotive; while New Haven was the big purchaser of the model, other railroads only placed token orders for them, usually a pair. Their styling wasn't particularly well-refined, unlike the gracious-yet-powerful looks of their successor, the PA.
mudchicken wrote:The 244 engine(s) were a nightmare. CRIP, ATSF and others put EMD 567's in them after a while.
If I recall correctly, the DL-109's used a pair of 1,000 HP 539 engines. The Pa's were the ones stuck with the 244's.
Another reason for the scarcity of the DL-109's was the WPB banning the production of new passenger locomotives for the duration of WW2. By the time the war was over, Alco was ready to start with the PA's. Now if WW2 hadn't happened....
They were so darned UGLY that no one wants to remember them!!!
Dick
Texas Chief
erikem wrote: Another reason for the scarcity of the DL-109's was the WPB banning the production of new passenger locomotives for the duration of WW2. By the time the war was over, Alco was ready to start with the PA's. Now if WW2 hadn't happened....
... a few more railroads might have made the error of buying them.
RWM
The War Production Board relaxed the rules and passenger diesel production started up again in February 1945. The first E7s were built that month as was Santa Fe's first passenger FT set the #167.
All DL105, DL107, DL108, DL109 and DL110s were built with twin six cylinder 539T engines. Only the original prototype DL103b was built with the twin six cylinder 538T engines. It has been said that the 539T was not suited for long periods of high rpm running like in a passenger engine. ALCO engine development lagged behind EMD's. The failed 241 engine experiments and the rush to production of the 244 engine led to further ALCO problems.
erikem wrote: If I recall correctly, the DL-109's used a pair of 1,000 HP 539 engines. The Pa's were the ones stuck with the 244's.Another reason for the scarcity of the DL-109's was the WPB banning the production of new passenger locomotives for the duration of WW2. By the time the war was over, Alco was ready to start with the PA's. Now if WW2 hadn't happened....
I don't know if I would call them ugly, like I would a BL2. I would call them unique, in a non-handsome sort of way.
Railway Man wrote: erikem wrote: Another reason for the scarcity of the DL-109's was the WPB banning the production of new passenger locomotives for the duration of WW2. By the time the war was over, Alco was ready to start with the PA's. Now if WW2 hadn't happened.... ... a few more railroads might have made the error of buying them.RWM
Good one...
At least the MILW put EMD-style noses on them in 1953. Out of service around 1959, scrapped 1964.
http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0001/mil14ba.jpg
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
I think it was a Beautiful Locomotive, so graceful in the age of steam.
Yes, The New Haven ordered there "Road Diesels" from there long time supplier, ALCO. They listed them as 0700 series "Freight-Passenger" locomotives. Each unit was rated at 2,000 hp and were run in pairs back to back. This gave them 4,000 hp at speeds up to 80 mph. They ordered 10 (5 pairs).
The first 4 units were delivered in December 1941, just after Pearl Harbor, and entered service on December 13th, south out of Boston, on train #175. A second order followed for 20 more units (total of 30, 15 pairs). 14 arrived in 1942, they then ordered 30 more. 2 more arrived in 1943, 10 in 1944, with the other thirty as the war ended. As of July 1944, total mileage for the 30 units then in service was 5,652,677 miles.
The New Haven entered the Post-War period with 30 4,000 hp pairs of DL109s (60 locomotives).
Ref: my copy of the New Haven Raiload company magazine "Along The Line", July 1944.
Of note, some of the "War Time" deliveries used Plywood for the side panels to save steel for the war effort.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
They did like them, as they drove to become the first "Class 1" railroad to eliminate steam, the next move was to order from ALCO a fleet of PAs for Passenger and FA/FB for Freight. The New Haven found that a four unit ALCO (FA-FB-FB-FA) would replace the L1 class 2-10-2 steam engines on the mountainous Maybrook line, they even eliminated the "helper service" at Hopewell Junction. By the mid 50s, steam was gone except for snow plow service, the New Haven was now playing with "Talgo Trains", FM "C-Liners" and EMD FL-9s.
They didn't see it comming, the Jet Airliner, the St. Lawence Seaway, and Interstate 95. They went bankrupt and were included in the Penn Central merger. Today Bullet Trains glide the former New Haven Main Line at 150 mph and Boston spends millions to re-lay and re-open abandon tracks for commuter service.
YoHo1975 wrote:as was said above, the 539s were problematic in high rev passenger service. to this day, 539s have a reputation as a "bad" Prime mover.
Does that mean they were OK in slow freight and switching service?
The '539' was a decent diesel engine for the late 30's, until EMD developed the '567' series engines. The power/weight ratio was in EMD's favor, and for a passenger engine this was an advantage. Alco's response to the E3 was the DL10x series of passenger engines, using a pair of the 538/539 series in-line switcher engines. They did not compare favorable to the EMD product in overall performance in passenger service.
Alco delivered DL109's before the WPB ban in 1942(The WPB allowed existing orders to be filled). Alco's production in WWII was made up of S1/S2 switchers and RSD1 road switchers for the Trans-Iranian Railroad for the most part. Alco/NH convinced the WPB to allow additional DL109's for the NH as they were 'dual service'.
EMD was busy building FT's; they were not allowed to build E units or switchers by the WPB. As the war production effort wound down in late 1944, the WPB started to allow certain industries to field new designs. Also got permission to assemble the ABA 'Black Maria' set of testbed engines.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
74 locomotives built between 1941 and 1945, 60 of them for just one "short haul" railroad, is just a "footnote" in railroad history.
Remember, Boston to New Haven, where the Diesel is swaped for an Electric, is only a 160 mile dash. What can fail in that distance. Buy the mid 1950s the New Haven was buying U25Bs, GP-9s, and FL-9s. After only 10 years the PAs and FAs were going, going, gone.
I must have strange taste, not only did I like the looks of the DL109s, but also the FM C-Liners (New Haven had 10).
Cylinder size on the 539 engine was 12 1/2" X 13". A 244 engine had 9" X 10 1/2" cylinders. The 567 engine had 8 1/2" X 10" cylinders. So what the 539 engine had as compared to engines of its era was considerable more weight per cylinder per horsepower developed.
Richard Steinbrenner in his book The American Locomotive Company A Centennial Remembrance states on page 179 that the ALCO engineers knew early on that "The height required by the in-line design-and a potential Vee version-was marginal relative to the space allowed in a practical freight unit carbody and that the 12 1/2" X 13" design's horsepower-to-weight ratio simply was too low for future growth potential, and it would only get worse with additional cylinders."
ALCO designed a freight DL202-1 cab and DL203-1 booster with an 8V-539T producing 1300 horsepower, but the design was never built. The so-called Black Maria's were built to specification DL202-2 cab and DL203-2 booster in 1945. The 12V-241 engines in these units failed because they were not fully tested. Eight cylinder versions of the 539T and 540T engines were built for stationary power supply use or in Navy vessels in the case of the 540 engines. Developmental work for uprating the 539 was halted toward the end of World War Two.
Simply put ALCO had an engine problem going in to World War Two. It was developmentally behind EMD and because of the war could not easily catch up. It manufactured what it had engineered prior to the war. Development work on the 241 engine continued during the war and an alternate 244 engine program was started during the war. Neither of these 9" X 10 1/2" designs was completly tested before production began on the 244 engines for the FA-1, FB-1, PA-1, PB-1 and RS-2 and RSC-2 models debuting in 1946.
Murphy Siding wrote: I just re-watched a tape I have, Trains Unlimited / Power and Speed / Diesel Locomotives. In it, there is a scant mention of the DL-109, saying something like: the railroads were not ready for the icreased maintenance needs of a large cylender diesel locomotive". (?) What does cylender size have to do with anything?
jrbernier wrote: The '539' was a decent diesel engine for the late 30's, until EMD developed the '567' series engines. The power/weight ratio was in EMD's favor, and for a passenger engine this was an advantage. Alco's response to the E3 was the DL10x series of passenger engines, using a pair of the 538/539 series in-line switcher engines. They did not compare favorable to the EMD product in overall performance in passenger service.
My dad had a story about his experience with the '539' while at the Navy's Diesel Engineering School at Cornell. One of his classmates was out the day they tore down the engine, but was back for the rebuidling. My dad asked for the tappet rods - his classmate said all he could find were pipes and my dad replied that thise pipes were the tappet rods.
Rock Island had four of these type of locomotives. They were the original DL103b which became Rock Island #624. A DL105 which became Rock Island #622, and two DL107s which were Rock Island #621 and #623. The Rock Island #621 is the one that was rebuilt with a pair of 12V-567B engines in June 1953 on EMD order #8500. Diesel data from DSG-2, A J Kristopans, and Wikipedia.
cnwfan51 wrote: The Chicago NorthWestern had only one and they didnt like it because of its lack of traction effort and later had the prime mover removed and had an EMD prime mover put in its place. The Rock Island also had only one and Its named Christine after its prime mover was replaced with an EMD prime mover If Jeff is reading this he could give more information on the Rock Island unit Larry
They were very rare and there were like only 50 built. There are few people who would recognize them. I guess their Alco prime movers were awful since the Rock Island repowered them with EMD's in 1953 (the Rock's good days were about over by that time).
Stevo3751 wrote: They were very rare and there were like only 20 built. There are few people who would recognize them. I guess their Alco prime movers were awful since the Rock Island repowered them with EMD's in 1953 (the Rock's good days were about over by that time).
They were very rare and there were like only 20 built. There are few people who would recognize them. I guess their Alco prime movers were awful since the Rock Island repowered them with EMD's in 1953 (the Rock's good days were about over by that time).
A total of 74 DL109's (cab) and 4 DL110's (booster) were built. NH received 60 DL109's, so they were scarce elsewhere. See this link: http://www.thedieselshop.us/Alco_DL109.HTML
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