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"Late" 4-4-0s?

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, April 4, 2021 12:25 PM

Overmod
You need to be careful to be right.  The German 'single word' is spelled with a 'k', not a 'c'.  The English equivalent should always be two words, 'zinc pest'.

Right you are, I must have had a "brain fart" or maybe because I'd only had one cup of coffee when I made the post.

The thing is, when discussing it on the Classic Toy Trains Forum I use the two word "zinc pest" myself!  

Usually the issue comes up when folks are discussing pre-war die cast Lionels.  My advice is if it hasn't happened to the items they own by now it's not likely to. Others agree.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 4, 2021 2:28 PM

Flintlock76
Usually the issue comes up when folks are discussing pre-war die cast Lionels.  My advice is if it hasn't happened to the items they own by now it's not likely to. Others agree.

This was thoroughly explained to me metallurgically years ago as something driven by allotropic temperature change in the alloy constituents, not "corrosion".  If that is so, it explains why nothing 'stops' it once started, how it develops in multiple points, why the crumbling takes the shape it does, and why there seems to be little coordination much of the time with how the piece was or was not exposed to moisture or atmospheric contaminants.  Even going from storage in a house to storage in an attic or poorly-heated train room might trigger the transition starting.

Whether corrosion tendency accelerates with a temperature-driven inception is a separate matter -- where there is some oxide present in cases of 'pest' that might be so.

I recently found when looking at threads on this on the MR forum that the explanation is wholly corrosion now.  I have no idea if 'everything I know is wrong' about pressure die casting alloys like Zamak or not...

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, April 4, 2021 5:15 PM

From what I've read the zinc alloy used in toy trains was Zamak.  The problem of zinc pest arose when the zinc itself wasn't properly smelted to remove all the impurities. Those impurities would start their dirty work fairly quickly, usually in not more than a year or two.  And yes, once it started it couldn't be stopped. 

Zinc pest killed the Dorfan toy train company, almost none of their die-cast products survive.  I believe it caught a few of the early die-cast Lionels as well. 

There is however zinc corrosion, not to be confused with zinc pest.  Usually grayish in appearance it can be dealt with like any other corrosion can be. 

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Posted by Sara T on Sunday, April 4, 2021 10:35 PM

Flintlock,

>>Dampf-freak. <<

No, this is not the translation of steam fan, this is a mockery word. The person called that is considered a bit silly and twisted in the head, is that what you see a steam fan is? I don't think so.

In general, German everyday language is much more full of disrespective, lowly, scornful, depreciative words than English language. It is I believe a reflection of the character of people: Germans, or especially Bavarians, often like to uprate themselves over the opponent, that can be seen in daily car traffic how they drive and tend to cut out the other, not let them in, or blow their horn at them when they are not fast enough or should get out of the way. As far as I have seen when I was n New York that is much different in America. One time I was crossing a busy street: left side was free, I went to the middle, waiting there because from the right there were cars coming all the time. I looked at a show window on the other side, suddenly noticed there were no cars passing anymore. I looked right and saw the cars had stopped to let me pass. I thanked and crossed. This would have been impossible in Munich!

Sara

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 4, 2021 11:05 PM

Sara T
No, this is not the translation of steam fan, this is a mockery word. The person called that is considered a bit silly and twisted in the head, is that what you see a steam fan is? I don't think so.

"Fan" is short for fanatic; it was not a nice expression.  It has passed into (unwarranted) common use along with expressions like 'fudge factor' that are really not nice at all if you think about what words are intended to mean.

What is the correct accepted German term for a steam-locomotive enthusiast?

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Posted by Juniatha on Monday, April 5, 2021 1:59 AM

Flintlock: ... and this is exactly what the word 'Nietenzähler' stands for: a person who is lost in tiny details and criticises if the number of rivets are not the original.

Overmod: the correct translation of enthusiast is: 

Enthusiast, only the English 'th' becomes an elongated 't'. How do you speak

an elongated 't'? I think it's the same difficulty to you as the 'th' is to

Germans, I am Trans-Atlantic, from Atlantis so to say and know both -

che-che-che ..

BTW - what is this 7:59h? At my place it's now 0:07 (James Bond time) This 7:59h is not Eastern time, nor European ...

=J=

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, April 5, 2021 8:23 AM

Juniatha
BTW - what is this 7:59h? At my place it's now 0:07 (James Bond time) This 7:59h is not Eastern time, nor European ...

Fascinatingly enough, I see your post stamped "1:59am" but the Kalmbach software says you made it 'six hours ago' ... which should be relative to my local time which is 8:23 (Central time, daylight-saving time) and displays correctly when I read it in my own post ... but is off by an hour... in the wrong direction for it to be a daylight saving correction... from the time you referenced.

I surmise the gremlins are into fixing, or at least meddling with, the preference information.  I'm sure you set your local time in preferences, so this has to be 'new'. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, April 5, 2021 8:30 AM

Sara T
No, this is not the translation of steam fan, this is a mockery word.

Sorry if I offended you Sara!  The thing is, several years ago I was given a link to a German steam fan website and low and behold right on the top of it was "Dampf-Freak!"  

Admittedly I only know enough German to get myself in trouble, but it sure looked like a legitimate fan site to me!  There were a LOT of good pictures of German steam in it!

Gee, your description of Bavarian road traffic sounds a lot like Route 80 or the Turnpike up in New Jersey!

New Jersey's state motto?  "If you don't like the way I drive then get off the sidewalk!"  

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, April 5, 2021 8:58 AM

Flintlock76
The thing is, several years ago I was given a link to a German steam fan website and low and behold right on the top of it was "Dampf-Freak!"

I am tempted to ask if the word 'Yankee' comes to mind (the original American sense, not the later Southern one!)  Or modern use of 'geek' which is one of the least-nice words of all...

Something interesting I learned in the old, vanished New York of potholes and crusty professional cab drivers in the '70s was how courtesy worked.  In those days cab traffic would thunder down the avenues nose-to-tail with about 3' headway.  BUT if you wanted to merge in, you put your blinker on.  The nearest cab driver would nearly always drop back half a car length... for about half a theatrical beat.  A New Yorker would promptly merge in, close up the distance, and the line would thunder on, everyone still getting there fast.

But if you hesitated or dithered or evidently didn't understand the professional code... the ranks would close up and you'd be stuck.

I used to drive my mom into and out of the city for appointments... many of which involved getting out of Manhattan at rush hour in a car the size of a Lincoln Town Car or Eldorado.  I would tell her just to lean her seat back and not look -- the ride would be smooth and there would be no accidents, but appearances were different!

That age ended in the early '90s, but there is still the rough courtesy when there's actually someone needing to go... I got to show my daughter firsthand as recently as last summer.

Wayne: 80 has been a parking lot for over 30 years, and Turnpike drivers aren't inconsiderate, they just go like hell.  I went from 18 to 2A just after they opened the Commodore Barry Bridge and averaged 102mph doing it... and people were passing me.  Ah, those were the days...

Try the Garden State Parkway or Rt. 22; those show you that Jersey balderdash.

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Posted by rixflix on Monday, April 5, 2021 9:47 AM

I'll get to the 4-4-0 (remember the topic?) business first. Bert Pennypacker describes the (end cab!) Reading D-11s locomotives as being the last 4-4-0's built for a major US railroad. The southern shortline and the C&IM were apparently not major enough for Bert. True, C&IM was essentially a utility company's conveyor belt.

Now back to the current discussions.

What are the German terms for foamer and trainspotter?

When my family's Penn hardware company fell victim to industry consolidation, Kwikset and unionization, my dad began producing historic souvenirs under the Penncraft name. Cannons, musket letter openers, Liberty Bells etc. for Philly, Gettysburg, Valley Forge and National Park Service tourist traps. Cast iron parts came from local foundries but in the beginning he would cast his own lead antimony parts in our basement, thus avoiding the zinc rot problem. Don't know what it did for our long term health, as we would be eating breakfast directly above the reheating lead fumes. Penncraft kept all us kids employed and remunerated on a piece-rate basis. No more allowances. I used to kid my dad with "who's buying all this stuff?" and he'd answer, "you'd better hope they keep doing it." When the Asian knock-offs started competing, some of their cannon chassis' had "Penncraft USA" cast on their undersides. They used that zinc with antique brown plating that you see in similar tchotchkes. They just rot away. Penncraft survives today, now owned by my sister.

Rick   

rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.

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Posted by M636C on Monday, April 5, 2021 10:02 PM

I'll get to the 4-4-0 (remember the topic?) business first. Bert Pennypacker describes the (end cab!) Reading D-11s locomotives as being the last 4-4-0's built for a major US railroad. The southern shortline and the C&IM were apparently not major enough for Bert. True, C&IM was essentially a utility company's conveyor belt.

(rixflix)

As I posted earlier, the Reading D-11 was a modern design, while the C&IM 4-4-0s were similar in appearence to late 19th Century locomotives with their narrow fireboxes between the driving wheels, although of course, they were superheated with Walschearts Valve gear and piston valves.

Sara asked earlier what a maximum power 4-4-0 would look like. With the D11 in mind I thought what the boiler she described would look like. My mind wandered a little and settled on the Reading I 10 2-8-0. This was almost short enough for a 4-4-0 but big enough for a 4-8-4 (as Reading proved when they rebuilt most of the 2-8-0s into T 1 4-8-4s, keeping the whole firebox and the 96" diameter boiler at the rear tubeplate). Eight feet in diameter and only 13'6" between tubeplates. (The 4-8-4 version was lengthened to 20 feet between tubeplates).

So just look at a photo of the I 10 and imagine the boiler on a (somewhat stretched) D 11 chassis and there it is - a Superpower 4-4-0....

Peter 

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Posted by Juniatha on Tuesday, April 6, 2021 12:18 AM

... maybe I shall post my 4-4-0, 27 class? It didn't have such a wiiiiiiide boiler but enough pressure for a four-cylinder compound, especially because on a 4-4-0 it is so easy to put in. I hope it looks 'modern' enough - though designed to run on European branch lines, namely the coast lines at the Baltic sea: all flat and no heavy trains. The Brits would have it run up to ... whatever. 

(If I should do so, I first have to dig it out from my boxes, oh dear!)Angel

Juniatha

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, April 6, 2021 8:42 AM

rixflix
my dad began producing historic souvenirs under the Penncraft name. Cannons

And I've got a cute little Penncraft twelve-pounder on a garrison carriage I bought in the Valley Forge souvenir shop back in the 60's!  It's held up well, looks as good as the day I bought it!  Your family did nice work!

One can never have too many souvenir cannons!

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, April 6, 2021 8:45 AM

Overmod
Wayne: 80 has been a parking lot for over 30 years

Mod-man, if you want to have some fun, Google "The Route 80 Rant Page," just like that.  Trust me, you'll have a ball!  

Last year's top rant, from December:

"Damn, Santa Claus must have crashed his sled, there's dead deer all over the road by Hackettstown!"

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, April 6, 2021 8:48 AM

Juniatha
(If I should do so, I first have to dig it out from my boxes, oh dear!)

I know what you mean!  Every so often I have to look something up in the archives here in the Fortress Flintlock.  I'm surprised I haven't gotten black lung disease from blowing the dust off books I haven't looked at in years!

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Posted by Sara T on Tuesday, April 6, 2021 9:29 AM

Flintlock, 

I believe Juni refers to her having made that big move and everything got packed in boxes. She seems not to have had time (or the good will) to unpack everything and put it up the way it was when they lived in Berlin. Unfortunately I only got to cross her way when we both lived in Munich, and that was only short.

Übrigens: If you like chaos videos of road traffic, just check the "We love Russia" series, unbelievable things happen there (not all road traffic but most of them). It tells you things that could be valuable if you came to Russia by car, but then again after seing a number of these videos you don't go there by car. Just a moment I will pick up some link: (note that today they can buy Audi BMW and Mercedes, but my old word applies: such cars you not just have to be able to buy but you have to be able to drive them, too!)    

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPguPM_7vH0

There are many, many, many more of them (and there are some from the USA too, pssht)

Sara 

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Posted by Juniatha on Thursday, April 8, 2021 11:51 PM

Sara wrote "There are many, many, many more of them (and there are some from the USA too, pssht)"

... but rather with road / railroad crossings, like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJPmE6Frgwc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoIme0EGeNg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE_6KT4YMZ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-22Gt8Pkn8o

sorry, not all are train related 

=J=

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, April 9, 2021 3:23 PM

Sara T
Übrigens: If you like chaos videos of road traffic, just check the "We love Russia" series,

Um, I watched the video, and now I just have to ask.

How did the Russians manage to drive the Germans out?  I mean really!

All that road carnage reminds me of what a Czech co-worker of mine told me Warsaw Pact combined military training exercises were like.  Total chaos!

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, April 9, 2021 3:43 PM

Juniatha
Sara wrote "There are many, many, many more of them (and there are some from the USA too, pssht)"

Mamma mia!  All that carnage!

Anyone want to take a trip with me back to a saner time and place?  

And, I think there's a few 4-4-0's here, and maybe a Camelback! 

Let's roll up the good old Northern Railroad of New Jersey, grab a cup of coffee and light up a "Fatima" or a "Sweet Caporal" and here we go...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzTAGCUUMtk  

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Posted by IA and eastern on Friday, April 9, 2021 5:30 PM

What other 4-4-0s had the grate above the drivers. Gary

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Posted by M636C on Friday, April 9, 2021 5:54 PM

IA and eastern

What other 4-4-0s had the grate above the drivers. Gary

 

The Reading locomotives discussed earlier were class D-11. There were ten other classes D-1 to D-10 that all had wide (Wootten) fireboxes over the driving wheels, but these were all Camelback types. Presumably the other anthracite roads had similar wide firebox 4-4-0s in Camelback configuration.

However, the Atlantic type was more suited to wide firebox designs and large roads like the Pennsylvania and Santa Fe and the Harriman roads like SP and UP had a number of 4-4-2 designs that took the place of a wide firebox 4-4-0.

As observed earlier, older 4-4-0s were rebuilt (like PRR 1233 and NYC 999) and lasted a long time, and the C&IM 4-4-0s, the last built for a US Railroad, had narrow fireboxes, looking much like the older locomotives as rebuilt.

Peter

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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, April 13, 2021 3:49 AM

IA and eastern

What other 4-4-0s had the grate above the drivers. Gary

 

While looking for something else entirely, I found:

photo of DELAWARE & HUDSON 445 4-4-0 CARBONDALE PA 1937 | Carbondale, Train posters, Photo (pinterest.com.au)

D&H 445 looks superficially similar to the Reading D-11 and I first thought it was a photo of a D-11. I suspect this is a rebuild from a Camelback, since it has slide valves and inside Stephenson valve gear, but the cab looks relatively modern.

 But is one more wide firebox conventional 4-4-0...

Peter

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, April 13, 2021 11:45 AM

No discussion of wide-firebox 4-4-0s is quite complete without the Lackawanna's streamlined* locomotive.  Which could almost be said to lend a new semantic meaning to 'late' 4-4-0 designs... Smile

 


https://www.steamlocomotive.com/types/streamlined/dlw988.jpg

*Reminds me a bit about a sort of entertainment place on Tortola, BVI: if you know the idea, no explanation is necessary; if you do not, no explanation is possible.

Since I first read about them in the Quadrant Press book, I have tried to find the V-speed information for these Lackawanna engines.  I did get to ask Otto Kuhler if his examination was successful; he just laughed...

On the other hand, this might be the most modern 4-4-0 (not counting the Schools class in Britain)...

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Tuesday, April 13, 2021 1:34 PM

This satire of streamlining detracts from noticing that a 4-4-0 has Walschaerts gear driving piston valves?

Or is this Baker gear?

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, April 13, 2021 2:03 PM

That Lackawanna 4-4-0 wasn't the only engine they put those wings on.

Guess how fast they disappeared when the president of the 'road who had them installed retired and left the company?

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, April 13, 2021 3:03 PM

Paul Milenkovic
This satire of streamlining detracts from noticing that a 4-4-0 has Walschaerts gear driving piston valves?

There is more that has been modernized on that 4-4-0 than that.

steamlocomotive.com says there were ten 4-4-0s with the Baker gear (we can probably date the actual era from the style of short Baker frane used), all, as suspected, rebuilt from Camelbacks.  Only 988 was given a 'party dress' but clearly doesn't have the 'Universal steam chest' piston-valve conversion many of the Lackawanna engines got when superheated; these look like the set described for locomotive 992 -- cast steel 21" cylinders with 10" valves.  I would presume some care was taken to balance their relatively small drivers to make best use of the new cylinders and valve gear, which have to be done if the best ultimately put on any USA 4-4-0...

Incidentally, to see the difference possible with one additional driving axle (and some sets of wings - for fun, see if you can spot 'em all)

 https://www.steamlocomotive.com/types/streamlined/dlw1011.jpg

These look like new cylinders, too.

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Tuesday, April 13, 2021 10:15 PM

What is that lump on top of the firebox for both locomotives?

Is that for the in-transit Internet and passenger entertainment screens?Movie

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, April 13, 2021 10:53 PM

Since I first read about them in the Quadrant Press book, I have tried to find the V-speed information for these Lackawanna engines.  I did get to ask Otto Kuhler if his examination was successful; he just laughed...

I have been told that when he first saw these locomotives Otto Kuhler looked quite closely at the streamlining and on being asked what he was looking for, he said that he was looking for the mechanism that flapped the wings - I assume that is the reference above.

There was a DLW Hudson at the 1939/40 Worlds Fair (numbered "1940") that had a slightly toned down version of this styling...

To return to the D&H 4-4-0s, steamlocomotive.com suggests that these were superheated when rebuilt to a rear cab, but 445 really doesn't look as if this was done at the time of the photo.

Peter

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Wednesday, April 14, 2021 11:57 AM

Overmod

 

 
Paul Milenkovic
This satire of streamlining detracts from noticing that a 4-4-0 has Walschaerts gear driving piston valves?

 

There is more that has been modernized on that 4-4-0 than that.

 

steamlocomotive.com says there were ten 4-4-0s with the Baker gear (we can probably date the actual era from the style of short Baker frane used), all, as suspected, rebuilt from Camelbacks.  Only 988 was given a 'party dress' but clearly doesn't have the 'Universal steam chest' piston-valve conversion many of the Lackawanna engines got when superheated; these look like the set described for locomotive 992 -- cast steel 21" cylinders with 10" valves.  I would presume some care was taken to balance their relatively small drivers to make best use of the new cylinders and valve gear, which have to be done if the best ultimately put on any USA 4-4-0...

Incidentally, to see the difference possible with one additional driving axle (and some sets of wings - for fun, see if you can spot 'em all)

 https://www.steamlocomotive.com/types/streamlined/dlw1011.jpg

These look like new cylinders, too.

 

Of course the valves and cylinders are new -- they have those wing decals on them.

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 14, 2021 3:11 PM

Paul Milenkovic
Of course the valves and cylinders are new -- they have those wing decals on them.

Those are just bolt-on escutcheons -- you could put 'em on the Universal slide-valve conversion just as easily... Wink

The point is that these aren't converted cylinders; they're new one-piece castings under the lagging.  I'm tempted to say they deserve to carry wings... Smile

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