On a long passenger train strung out across a fairly tight curve the engine cab could most definitely end up at an angle to look into the window of a car far back in the train, but one would need binoculars to identify a particular face.
The rest of that story sounds pretty fanciful, and I've never heard it anywhere before.
It could be a combination of several stories, Perlman's disdain for steam is very well known and I have read of other cases of engine crews falling or jumping out of the cab for one reason or another.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
The story doen't give the impression that this was a slow train traveling on a route with sharp curves. But I suppose anything is possible.
Lithonia Operator nhrand you can't see a passenger in a following car from the engine cab.
nhrand you can't see a passenger in a following car from the engine cab.
Lithonia Operator nhrand you can't see a passenger in a following car from the engine cab. I was skeptical about that also.
I was skeptical about that also.
If the train is long enough and the curve is sharp enough and the passenger is sitting far enough back in the train - it is possible, if not likely. Very unlikely anywhere track speed is above 20 MPH as higher speeds require larger diameter curves.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
nhrandyou can't see a passenger in a following car from the engine cab.
Over The Top
Juniatha's mention of a trainman going over the tender to get to the engine cab reminds me of a similar event I witnessed in the mid 1950's during a fan trip over the Southern Division of the Central Vermont. The CV was still steam powered at the time so there were frequent fan trips in the waning days of steam in New England. The CV in Mass. and Conn. was freight only so power was the N-5 2-8-0's which were powerful and more than fast enough to get a fan trip originating in NYC, New Haven or Boston from New London to Brattleboro and back with plenty of time for photo stops and lunch while the engine was serviced. The CV 2-8-0's were freight engines but were equipped with steam lines for passenger service in Vermont on the Montreal trains. The fan trip trains consisted of New Haven cars, including a diner, since the CV had no passenger cars available on the Southern Division.
I was riding the baggage car (with open doors with slats to keep fans from falling out) but was standing at the front door to hear the engine, see the smoke and watch the tender swaying at speed. Suddenly the steam hose on the tender connecting with the baggage car hose burst with a bang but fortunately the steam was carried below the cars because of the speed of the moving train -- the escaping steam was loud but didn't pose a danger while the train was moving. To alert the engineer to close the steam line, the trainman went out the front door of the baggage car to the tender, climbed the ladder and went over the coal pile to reach the 2-8-0 cab. Since there was no regular passenger service on this end of the CV, trainmen didn't have uniforms but on the fan trips they wore their "Sunday" blue suits which probably needed dry cleaning after the trip. When the engine was turned at Brattleboro the 2-8-0 went into the roundhouse where the steam hose was replaced as I watched -- a relatively easy job.
I can recall that a number of CTA 6000 cars that were assigned to what is now the Blue Line were equipped with the safety bars when the Jefferson Park extension was opened in 1970. The subway that connected Logan Square with the median of the Kennedy Expressway had especially tight clearances, even for CTA.
Close Clearances
Regarding the danger of running an engine with your head out the cab window, you obviously needed to be cautious about close clearances which were usually indicated by signs such as -- will not clear man on side of car -- or something similar. An example of a warning about how close clearances could be is the following instruction from a NY,NH&H employee timetable from 1932 -- "Wind shields on L-1 engines must be closed while operating on tracks 1 and 2 west cut, New Haven." The wind shield is a narrow folding framed window located next to the side window on many steam locomotive cabs to give the engineer some protection against cinders when he peers out the side window. The wind shields on the New Haven L-1 2-10-2's were only about 6 or so inches wide when extended so you can see that clearances in the cut were so narrow that the windshield would be struck if open. Remember when trolley cars with windows that went up had a grid of bars over the opening to prevent passengers from having their heads or arms out a window given close clearances. When passenger cars still had open windows the window usually only opened enough to let in air but not enough to get your head out although you could lose an arm if you were not careful. I was commuting into NYC when car windows still opened for "air conditioning".
Unbelievable
It's a good tall tale but not believable. The engineer and fireman were obviously killed -- you don't fall out of the window of a fast moving engine without breaking a neck. And I hope the engine crew had enough sense to know you can't see a passenger in a following car from the engine cab.
One way or another, it's a hell of a story!!
Lithonia Operator wrote. "Or is this just one of those senior "memories" that create themselves?"
Oh, you should have written the rest of the story:This was on the New York Central at the early time of the reign of Perlman.One time he was riding the Pacemaker which at that time to his pain in the axx still was handled by a Niagara steam (!!!) locomotive. When they took up the train at Harmon, the driver was told by the trainman to be cautious about not to overspeed nor to arrive late because 'the Big Boss' was on the carpets. Ok, they started out correctly and everything was about to work out fine - until the driver got the idea of having a glimpse on the Big Boss as he sat at the table in the diner on the right side of the train ( he always did, to avoid passing trains giving him a shock every time)Now, as they were following the Hudson upstream there came a tighter right-hand curve and the driver got obsessed with the idea of that being the point where he should get his glimpse.He held at the roof with his right hand, jumped his back on the window sill, and took a look way back. The fireman shouted at him "Now don't you ...!" But the driver waved at him "Cool down!" Unfortunately, this was just his right hand that he did the waving with, consequence didn't sleep at the switch but the air stream grabbed him and pulled him off the window. The fireman jumped over the cab, got hold of his feet, and wanted to pull him back in. Instead, the many Hamburgers and good steaks made themselves known (the driver had 275 pounds, quite the same as the boiler pressure) and at the twinkle of an eye, the fireman (a thin young man of but 119 pounds) found himself strained to the limit holding those feet just where they were. What was more alarming, he felt losing his balance and he was endangered of being drawn through the window, too, when suddenly he was turned over and - zip! - out they both were. It is not known if Perlman had become aware who the two men were that tumbled over the embankment when his diner passed. Known, however - if not to the steam historians - was his explosive reaction when the train had finally stopped at Hudson after it had run through at Poughkeepsie. This had alarmed the trainman, and since he didn't see the silhouette of the driver at his window, he decided he would have to climb out at the front of the train, get to the top of the tender at full speed while another passenger train passed them, and make an impromptu hair-raising entry into the cab - and find it empty. Since at Harmon he had still spoken to the driver this was inexplicable to him. Although he had a faint thought of the two might be out on the running board repairing something, no desperate look-around spotted them. So he finally came to the conclusion he had to stop the train - but how? he was not familiar with the elements of a steam (!!!) locomotive. After trying various levers, testing water level, injector, and others, he finally grasped something that caused a hissing sound and a grinding noise. Speed began to fall - ahh! that was it! While throttle and valve gear remained set as they were, the train finally came to a stop quite near Hudson. Once standing, he got out of the cab, his colleagues ran up to him and finally, an important-looking figure appeared: Perlman! shouting from his fire-red head about what sxxx! this is and who the fxxx is responsible for! As he towered himself up next to the locomotive it so happened that the safety valves popped open and an enormous crash went loose which gave him a shock so much he fainted and had to be hurried into the next hospital. His words when he woke up have largely missed their due entry into the annals of steam - although they certainly were pointing out the doom of steam very decisively: he shouted "To hxxx with these steam locomotives, get rid of these fxxxxxx things as fast as you can - that is: me!" That's what soon banned especially the Niagaras from the Hudson line and re-allocated them to the Big Four, further made all steam locomotives pretty indiscriminately tumble into oblivion and being replaced by diesels, no matter what traction value, but no driver could fall out their tiny side window and no boiler could sound like about to explode while the Big Boss is near to it.So, all in all, it was a brave attempt by the Niagara or some would say as Perlman did: a tried assassination - but it went to nothing and only banged back in a most Perlman-like way! This is the unofficial explanation of why no Niagara was preserved.
Yet, I have a strange feeling, I can't rid of: this might very well be one of those 'memories' that create themselves ...
Juniatha
IIRC, we had a story in one of these threads about an engineer falling right out, while the fireman was asleep. And there was no head brakeman in the cab. The fireman at some point woke up and stopped the train.
Or is this just one of those senior "memories" that create themselves?
Paul Milenkovic Can't remember the source, but I think I saw a photo of the locomotive enginer of yes, a camelback, sitting on the window sill and having his whole upper body leaning out the window.
Can't remember the source, but I think I saw a photo of the locomotive enginer of yes, a camelback, sitting on the window sill and having his whole upper body leaning out the window.
Head-out-the-window became such a habit that I think I saw a photo of one of the UP/GE condensing steam turbines with the driver posed that way. Maybe just habit, but that locomotive had a much bigger nose on it than a diesel, and I had seen a drawing labeled that they stored makeup water for the condensor there. Just because it has a condensor doesn't mean it doesn't need a water tank.
Did this leaning with one's head out the window pose a hazard of getting struck by lineside obstructions?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
All Of The Above
The number of variations on the placement and design of steam locomotive cabs would fill a book. And don't forget the cab-in-front locomotives on the SP. A trip to a railroad museum is a good place to get an education. I'm within a moderate drive of the museums in Spencer, NC, Baltimore, MD and Strasburg, PA, all of which have locomotives on display which have access to the cab. The C&O 2-6-6-6 cab is about large enough to fit a pool table. The B&O museum has both a camel - cab on the top of the boiler - and a camelback - cab astride the boiler. One of the interesting cabs is the one on the B&O USRA light Mikado which has an extension behind the fireman's side of the cab that provides a seat for the head-end brakeman (cabs on larger engines often have space for a seat behind both the fireman and the engineer). I can't remember a "vestibule" fully enclosed cab at the three museums I cited but that is another interesting variation. I would say that the most common cab location is behind the firebox with about half the cab over the rear end and half behind the rear end. Regarding visibility, that depended a great deal on the age of the engine. As locomotive boilers increased in girth the front windows on rear cabs became smaller but even on the largest engines there was enough of a front window to see signals, etc. Of course, running with your head out the side window was common even on cold days -- some northern roads even provided the engineer with a type of bay window on the cab side to improve the view ahead while offering protection from freezing weather.
Lithonia Operator Second vid wrote: "All I know is what I experienced. I was not halluciniating."
Well, ok, you weren't - but the designer of this weird cab clearly was.
This is sure the most impractical - or let's make no bones about it: stupidest - sorry - cab arrangement I have ever seen. This is less a crew's shelter but a boiler's shelter! Second video: Also least comfortable is the fire door down at the cab footplate! Oh thank you - no! Greetings from your backbone! And you have no proper overview of the fire, neither! Also, they don't even have a boiler cladding! O-M-G! Nice, very nice!
But, ok, it could be corrected if they want: adjust the underframe and coupling and reposition the cab back ~ 3 to 4 feet; put a boiler cladding, re-adjust the piping. To avoid having to reposition the fire door, you could lower the middle part of the cab floor; this would also help for height of coal pickup table of the tender which I reckon is also rather low now. You would feel the difference when firing!
See these videos for a more regular cab arrangements:
241.A.65 Mitfahrt auf der Lok - Drivers cab-ride steam engine - YouTube
ex SNCF 241.A Mountain type deGlehn four cylinder compound now preserved in Switzerland. Although the 'Jeanne d'Arc' type was never known to be inviting to crews, at least you have them behind the boiler (boiler ends lengthwise between the two cab side windows)
Spektakuläre Sonderfahrt mit der Dampflok 44 225 (44 2225-9) - Dezember 1994 - YouTube
cab ride on Decapod 44 225 preserved in Cottbus; boiler back ends lengthwise at about 1/2 of front side window; DR standard cab of standard classes.
01 202 an der Geislinger Steige, 15.10.2016 - YouTube
Pacific 01 202 preserved in Switzerland, on a tour in Germany; at 1:19 you see you start these locomotives with throttle ~ 1/2 open which as the engine walks away will give you about 55 % bp; only when you take back c/o you open up more and until full 1/1 with max no more than 40%; around 5:30 you can see the firedoor is positioned higher, you can fire with the backbone almost upright (if you are not too tall) - same with all other standard classes.
Dampf über der Geislinger Steige - YouTube
And while we're at it: steam over Geislinger incline (line Ulm - Stuttgart): 01 1066, 01 150, 52-80 Decapod plus 41 class Mikado, Bavarian S 3/6 von Borries four cylinder compound and 01 1066 three cylinder again, at 7:54 you can well see the fireman sitting well back of the boiler.
But, ok, I don't want to be involved in a quarrel and so everyone cool down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bizlbxDYNo
It's alright: besides the boiler, above or below it and even before - I don't care! Ok, now bye-bye!
In the second video I linked above, Russ mentions a 1950 N&W engine. That was a reference to the 611, which was visiting. That video was shot two weeks before I was there. The 611 was still there, but although I saw it very close-up several times, I was never on board.
Well, folks can speak in absolutes if they wish. But here is a video from inside the same engine I got to run. (I did not shoot this.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFrD4TDyytI
Where you see the engineer standing, I was seated. Well up alongside the boiler. (IIRC, the seat could fold out of the way onto the cab side.) Just as I was the paying engineer, there was also a paying fireman, and a paying "head brakeman." I ran the loco under the instruction of the RFE, who stood behind me. The guest fireman worked with the actual fireman. And the guest brakeman just rode, in the fireman's seat. AFAIK, neither the guest fireman or the real fireman (actually a firewoman) ever sat down.
I could hear the two firepersons talking and doing their work, but I saw them only before and after we were running. The were not visible to me, and neither was the guest brakeman. (Except maybe just the top of his cap.) The backhead and firebox doors were not visible to me. The throttle was ahead of me and above, and the Johnson bar was further forward, IIRC, and came up from the floor. It was cozy, but I liked it. The view forward was great, but not seeing anything to the left was a bit unsettling at first.
This video (also not mine) will show more of the engine cab, and explain why the boiler extends so far back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmSql-Cf0Rs
The RFE seen here, Russ, was who worked with me. It was a great experience!
My impression is that during a certain period, it was common for engines to be configured this way. It was not particularly hot where I sat. But it was fall, and the door to the running board was left open, as was the window.
The guest fireman told me later that he worked pretty hard. The firewoman did not shovel, only directed. The guest brakeman only rode. We were strictly forbidden from taking photos in the cab.
All I know is what I experienced. I was not hallucinating.
Sara is right: the crew did sit behind the boiler, not by its side (that would be absurd to do! why all the space behind if they are squeezed into that little and hot(!) front space) Of course they don't sit behind the boiler in the middle of the cab but at left and right side to be able to look forward alongside the boiler. Sara described absolutely correct the vision of the two people was like the eyes of a horse: forward and to one side each.
To be correct, description of the position of their seats should be: on a side elevation drawing, the seats are lengthwise behind the boiler back, on a cross-section drawing the seats are outsides the boiler, on a look-down drawing they are behind and outsides the corners of the boiler back at the left / right sides of the cab room behind the boiler.
Take out any cab photo or side view picture of a regular steam locomotive of any country and you will see: on American late era steam locomotives there is a wide side window, mostly somewhat set back within the side sheet of the cab and of this often the rear part is open and that's where the driver / fireman lean out.
If their seats would be forward besides the boiler in the foremost corner of the whole cab: how could they bend back so far? (and how could they manage get to sit down there at all?)
On all my cab rides on various steam engines I never saw anyone even to attempt just for a minute to get into where the life steam injector and Bosch oiler are firmly installed and several pipings pass on the left side, where the valve gear control screw and block, speedometer, whistle lever, sometimes throttle lever and the brake controls are installed on the right side, pretty well filling those spaces.
On the 44 / 50 and 52 / 42 classes engines built after 1940, there was just one of the originally two cab side windows and it was the rear one and that's where the guys sat, not at the front corner of the blindfolded part of the cab.
Same with the French engines that had this SNCF split window, the rear part opening, the Italian engines with a rear cut-out in the side sheet, Russian engines with the rear of the two side windows opening, even British engines like the LNER A1 - A4, LMS Princess and Coronation classes, the BR standard 7 class, 9F and all the rest, South African ... etc ...
Best wishes
Paul MilenkovicIf you conduct a Web search of "steam locomotive backhead", you will see (for U.S. locomotives) that the engineer's seat (I think for a long time the Brits made the crew stand) is indeed to the right of the boiler, but it is set back enough that the engineer and fireman can see each other to coordinate their work.
Well actually, not in all cases.
For example, around the turn of the 20th Century a number of steam locomotives were built with the backhead/firebox protruding back into the cab and separating the engineer and fireman, although not so separated they couldn't communicate.
There's one of that type at the Colorado Railroad Museum, a 2-8-0. I've seen it and been in the cab. Casey Jone's Ten-Wheeler was of the same configuration, and as L-O said, 475 at Strasburg is the same.
Just how common the configuration was and what the reasoning behind the same was I don't know.
Oh, and on the locomotive I saw at the CRM there were steam pressure, and assorted gauges on the engineer's side where he could see them. The sight glass I don't know, I don't remember seeing one. Doesn't mean there wasn't one there.
Oh c'mon, people!
If you conduct a Web search of "steam locomotive backhead", you will see (for U.S. locomotives) that the engineer's seat (I think for a long time the Brits made the crew stand) is indeed to the right of the boiler, but it is set back enough that the engineer and fireman can see each other to coordinate their work.
If the engineer is seated beside the boiler, how is the engineer going to see the steam pressure gauge and the sight glass or glasses? Yes, steam pressure and boiler water level is among the duties of the fireman to check, but the engineer may want to glance at these indicators, too?
Most steam locomotives outside the USA were subject to much tighter clearances than those in the USA. So there was not the room to sit beside the boiler, even on locomotives with narrow fireboxes to fit between plate frames.
In Australia, the only locomotives that had the driver sit beside the boiler were Baldwin 2-8-0s from 1879 and 1892 and a few similar 4-6-0s from 1892. These had the boiler backhead in line with the rear of the cab.
Most other locomotives had the backhead only a few inches behind the cab front plate.
Peter
I understand it would have to be that way with a Wootten firebox. But Sara's post said that engineers sat behind the firebox on "regular engines" also.
The N&W #475 at Strasburg is the only engine I've ever run, so it made a big impression. But my recollection, from going to museums, etc., was exactly what you say, that the seat in the narrow "aisle" was more or less standard in North America.
From the engineer's seat in 475, I could barely see the person riding in the fireman's seat, IIRC only his cap.
Lithonia OperatorI operated a steam locomotive not long ago at the Strasburg Rail Road. On that one, the engineer's seat is in the narrow space between the firebox/boiler and the wall of the cab.
Which is the 'normal' location for most US steam locomotives. The Wooten firebox that generated the need for the Camelback - the firebox was wider and did not leave sufficient space to locate the engineer in that space - at best it allowed a narrow walkway between the firemans location and the engineers location.
I operated a steam locomotive not long ago at the Strasburg Rail Road. On that one, the engineer's seat is in the narrow space between the firebox/boiler and the wall of the cab.
Lithonia
I can tell you that - hehehe: The cab seats are arranged not in the small aisle between boiler and cab wall but behind the boiler back side. In any regular steam locos cab.
Blocked forward vision: look up Juniatha's post about this: the drawing shows that it was all half as hot: you could look forward as well at least as in the later locos with the really big boilers. It's on p4 this thread and in the upper 1/3
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/740/t/285910.aspx?page=4#3321990
In steam locos of the regular form the crew can look forward and only each the left and the right part of the line, like the eyes of a horse.
Did the rear cab conversions have the engineer all the way aft of the firebox?
Yes, all the way and in one piece, he did not even stick partly inside the firebox. Ahh, not even the firing one.
0S5A0R0A3
I thought that camelbacks had the cab forward of the firebox because the wide firebox left no room for engineer/fireman seats; and also forward vision would have been blocked from a rear cab.
So, when later converted to rear cab locos, how was the vision problem solved? And did the rear cab conversions have the engineer all the way aft of the firebox?
never knew much about them except for some old pics I have seen. Sounds like it was not a good design and dangerous.
jtrain1
"Boy. Was he lucky! But, did he get into trouble for that?"
Who was lucky?
=J=
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