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Question about Camelback locomotives..

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, February 20, 2021 11:13 AM

Oh, it's scary all right!  In my mind when I think of fifty-year-old movies I still think they should have Charlie Chaplin in them!  Not anymore!

Now some of my favorite movies like "Patton" and "Kelly's Heroes" are fifty-year-old movies!  When did THAT happen?  

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Posted by 54light15 on Monday, February 22, 2021 5:25 PM

Enough with the old movies, already! We've seen some of this but not all and you gotta love the music! Note how the lyrics are sort of set to the action. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIC94gEUuc8 

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Posted by Sara T on Thursday, February 25, 2021 4:10 AM

I have a question about these locomotives. I looked it up in the internet and it looks totally weird to me. (More than my 'own' initial turned-around status (as coal dust fired locomotive and that was weird, oh, I never came to grips with anything, heavens sake I got rid of this contortion later)

--> W-h-a-t was the purpose of this upside-down confusion? Lack of view because the grate was wider than normal? You must be kidding! What about the later locomotives with the really wide and long boilers?

One time I was filming from the side of the boiler of a Wolsztyn locomotive standing on the running board while the locomotive was shunting some cars and when free got away really quick and attained some mild speed for some longer distance. This was a one time special situation, it didn't feel so uncomfortable because I wanted it for a purpose. But to imagine having to work day in day out like this would make me think, I have to say ...

Sara  05003

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Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, February 25, 2021 6:44 PM

As to the working conditions, it is worth noting that during the Camelback's era trainmen were expected to walk on top of moving freight cars during all hours of the day and night and in all weather conditions, of course without fall protection.  During the same timeframe many British locomotives lacked cabs of any kind.  A far cry from what we enjoy today. 

Others can explain the steaming rationale behind the Camelback design better than I.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Juniatha on Thursday, February 25, 2021 8:40 PM

Quote "One time I was filming from the side of the boiler of a Wolsztyn locomotive standing on the running board"

Wow, they let you stand on the running board while driving - even at slow speed?

What about switches on the branching path? Didn't you have to keep a tight grip to the boiler and wasn't that hot?

You really do test it out - chi-chi-chi!

 

Juniatha

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, February 25, 2021 9:23 PM

Welcome aboard Sara!

You certainly came to the right place for all things "Camelback!"

Suffice to say you've probably learned as much about them as it's possible to learn, but for just a quick review that wide firebox concept came about for no other reason than to burn cheap, reject coal that was unsaleable by the coal companys.  The railroads that used it as fuel for all intents and purposes got it free for the asking.

Only the accountants and railroad money-men loved the Camelbacks because they were cheap to run.  The engine crews never liked them at all, and some flat-out hated them.  But, it was either run the engines you were assigned or look for work elsewhere. 

Advancing locomotive technology made them obsolete as the 20th Century wore on, but on some 'roads like the Jersey Central they lasted until the end of steam, for various reasons. 

But for railfans and modelers they've always had a fascination that's never gone away.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, February 26, 2021 5:03 PM

I've been on the running board of our engine while she's hot a few times (never while moving), usually to put the stack cover on after the end of an operating day.  The insulation means it isn't any hotter than standing next to her on the ground while you're greasing everything. 

During the steam era over here trainmen were expected to exit the cab via the running boards and then run ahead of the engine to line switches, so a heavy train would not have to come to a complete stop as it entered a yard or siding.

Another memorable story (which was printed in the magazine a few years ago) involved the fireman repairing a failed feedwater pump while the engine continued to work hard pulling upgrade.  Meanwhile the low water alarm had started to scream. 

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, February 26, 2021 6:37 PM

SD70Dude
Another memorable story (which was printed in the magazine a few years ago) involved the fireman repairing a failed feedwater pump while the engine continued to work hard pulling upgrade.  Meanwhile the low water alarm had started to scream. 

Ever hear the phrase "Wooden ships and iron men?"

I can't help but think railroading is "Iron horses and men of steel!"

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Posted by Sara T on Sunday, February 28, 2021 11:19 AM

 

>>Welcome aboard Sara!

You certainly came to the right place for all things "Camelback!" <<

 

Thank you!

But, Flintlock, this explains why they were built with this wide grate. It does not explain to me why they had to put that cabin at the side of boiler. You could have looked over the side of the firebox, no? And the locomotive was not so long as the later big ones.

So ???

Greetings

0S5A0R0A3

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, February 28, 2021 1:18 PM

Sara T
It does not explain to me why they had to put that cabin at the side of boiler.

Easy to explain.  With that extra-wide firebox there was no room to mount a conventional cab, so since the engineer had to go somewhere  they put his cab on the right side of the boiler.  There was also a matching cab on the left side that was usually unoccupied unless a head-end brakeman was needed, and he usually rode there. 

Here's the story of a surviving (but not running) Camelback, Jersey Central's No. 592, which is displayed at the B&O Railroad Museum in Baltimore. 

http://www.borail.org/CNJ-No-592.aspx

I've been there and seen it, but they wouldn't let me on it!  Crying

But I do  have one of these to fool around with!  Big Smile

http://www.lionel.com/products/jersey-central-conventional-4-6-0-camelback-773-6-28749/

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Posted by 54light15 on Sunday, February 28, 2021 3:06 PM

"Anthracite is a waste by product?" I thoght anthracite was the better, cleaner burning coal than bituminous. Remember Phoebe Snow? Her gown stayed white on the route of anthracite? Or something like that. 

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Sunday, February 28, 2021 3:31 PM

54light15

"Anthracite is a waste by product?" I thoght anthracite was the better, cleaner burning coal than bituminous. Remember Phoebe Snow? Her gown stayed white on the route of anthracite? Or something like that. 

 

True, but the original idea was to burn anthracite mining "tailings", a byproduct of digging it out of the ground that was unusable for home heating fuel because it would choke the grate.

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, February 28, 2021 4:21 PM

When the B&O article referred to "waste anthracite" they were referring to what was called "culm," the stuff that was left after the raw (for lack of a better term) just-dug coal had gone through the breakers and emerged into the various sizes for various purposes. 

Culm was the small grainy stuff that wasn't saleable.  It was usually dumped into piles that over the years became hills, many of which can be seen to this day in anthracite country.

The B&O article's good, but it could have been a little more descriptive.

Phoebe Snow?  Sure!  I remember Phoebe Snow!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_Snow_(character)#/media/File:Phoebe-Snow-ditty.JPG

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Posted by Juniatha on Monday, March 1, 2021 6:03 AM

This a camelback ...

non-camelback

and this is a non-camelback

with the cab in the back.

Cross section shows cab has

forward window and reaches

over sides of firebox. I used

the center line to align cab

sideways the same as original.

It works - it shows it was more

sort of a 'panic' than really

needed.

At least that's what I think ...

 (puhh - 4h in the morning -

I go to sleep ...!)

Juniatha

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, March 1, 2021 8:46 AM

Oh wow, a Camelback Mallet!  Yeah, they had those too, but not too many.  The Erie had the first one, named "Angus," and used it for pusher service. Which probably made the fireman very happen, at least he didn't have to work too  hard since pushers don't go that fast.

There may have been some other Camelback Mallets besides the Eries but I'll have to hit the books on that.

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Posted by Sara T on Monday, March 1, 2021 9:26 AM

Hey, juhu!

I thought it would work the usual way!

Thanks Juni, for proving it!

Flintlock:

Never mind, but I think the object was not the Mallet but the non-camelback ?

0S5A0R0A3

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Posted by rrlineman on Tuesday, March 2, 2021 8:30 AM

According to Pennsy Power 1 they were later re-built with conventinal cabs.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, March 2, 2021 10:19 AM

Delaware & Hudson also had a number of 2-8-0's with Wootten fireboxes and a single cab.  I believe that some were rebuilt from double-cabbers.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Don-B&H on Tuesday, March 2, 2021 4:34 PM

I loved the "Oscar" and 'Piker.' I always wished I had purchased the kits when they were availabe, so I went out and bought the next best thing I could find.   RMT makes, or made, a 4 car set of 4 wheel cars consisting of a baggage car, two coaches and an observation car. They are "Lionel" O, quite well made, heavy, for their size, have lighting in the cars and decorated nicely.  I have a NYC and an undecorated set.  I run them behind my RMT 'Peep," which is an abreviated GP.  The set draws a lot of attention when I run them at train shows.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, March 2, 2021 8:18 PM

Don, I get where you're comin' from, I'm an O-Gauger myself, but shouldn't you have posted your comment on the "Classic Toy Trains" Forum?  

By the way, I've got six RMT "Beeps" myself!  Great little engines, put two or more together and they'll pull anything!  

For those of you wondering what we're talking about:

http://www.readymadetoys.com/

Hey, Christmas is coming you know.  Wink

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Posted by Sara T on Thursday, March 4, 2021 8:17 AM

rrlineman >>According to Pennsy Power 1 they were later re-built with conventinal cabs.<<

Aaaahh! so they de-'paniced' (Juní) themselves after some years?

Wichita Lineman: Original Video...Glen Campbell (1969) - Bing video

 

Flintlock  >>Don, I get where you're comin' from, I'm an O-Gauger myself,<<

Here I do 'uncouple' - I have no miniature railway and have never wanted. Other than on an exhibition I have not so much been interested because for me the admiration of locomotives lies also in their huge size and mass and the thunder of their power. Although the absolute power is not so great today in comparison with other machines steam locomotives have a fascination of their own with their unique aura and livelyness.

Maybe now that live steam is largely a thing of yesteryears, I should look a second time at the small reproductions.

KissesQuestion

SARA 05003

 

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Posted by nhrand on Thursday, March 4, 2021 9:58 AM

On The Running Board

        The comment about riding the running board of a steam locomotive while shunting remnded me of the time I rode Canadian Pacific H1B Hudson 2819 on a freight out of the St. Luc yard in Montreal in June 1959.  I stood behind the engineer in the vestibule cab.  On a long tangent soon after we left the yard and we were moving at a steady pace with 45 cars, the engineer climbed out the window to reach the running board along the boiler and fix something.  On the 2819, and on many steam locomotives, there is a narrow walk below the cab and a handrail along the top -- with a large boiler there is often no room for a cab front door or it is too tight to use as access to the boiler side.   After banging something a few times with a hammer he was satisfied and came back in through the side window.

        I had been taking photos of steam for five years when I rode the 2819 but I was not at all familiar with operating a steam locomotive and was surprised when the engineer spent some time on the running board while the train was in motion and, except for the fireman, I was the only one in the cab.  Up to that time I hadn't really thought too much about the fact that when running a steam engine the engineer doesn't have to be sitting in his seat with his hand on the throttle at all times.  In fact, I remember reading about a wreck on the New Haven that occurred because the engineer missed a signal because he was working on the fire when the fireman had a problem keeping up steam.

        My ride on the non-streamlined 4-6-4 was about year before steam operations ended on the Canadian Pacific and steam was growing scarce.  Indeed, the engineer said he was glad to be runing a steam locomotive because operating a diesel was like operating a trolley car.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, March 4, 2021 10:09 AM

rrlineman
According to Pennsy Power 1 they were later re-built with conventional cabs.

What were rebuilt with conventional cabs?

PRR of course had no Camelback Mallets, so the correct place to look is a different Staufer reference book... Erie Power.  Some of the relevant pages are visible here:

http://www.trainweb.org/milepost51/eriel1.html#L-1

Up to now I had never seen any reference to putting conventional cabs on the L-1s without putting a trailing truck on them (in part for the added weight of the stoker).  There is a comparatively short time between documented pictures of L-1s about to be 'operated on' at Baldwin and of the 2-8-8-2 'result', so if they installed just a long cantilevered cab as pictured in the diagram, they came to their senses about it fast.


It's surprisingly hard to find pictures of the locomotives after conversion, but there's a pretty good one here (from the above site and page):

http://members.trainweb.com/milepost51/rrmem/2600Baldwinrebuild.jpg

Unaccountably although Erie Power has a picture, Mr. Goldstein did not provide an image of that page...

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, March 4, 2021 11:37 AM

Sara T
Here I do 'uncouple' - I have no miniature railway and have never wanted.

Oh Sara, you don't know what you've been missing!

Some days there's nothing like sitting down at the layout with a mug of coffee and a smoke (or whatever) shootin' the juice to the train and watching it go 'round and 'round.

Of course, I'm easily amused.  Plus, it's your own little world where everything makes sense.  Most of the time anyway.

N gauge, HO, O or G, it's all good, but personally I prefer the thundering majesty of O gauge.  Have a look...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmAe5J8Yx-E    Woo-hoo!

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Posted by Juniatha on Thursday, March 4, 2021 8:20 PM

Hi Fireflint


.. a brave attempt - yet knowing Sara I have to prepare you for failing ...  Sara is not easy to understand in her preferences and propensities - and she would assent "That's what the drivers and firemen said at Hamm!" (You probably know that -003 had a different boiler than the first two 05s, and was set for higher steaming rates, having a smaller indirect (tubes) heating surface with a larger direct or radiation heating surface (firebox and combustion chamber), at that time the first such type on DB (later all Witte engines had the same type and same difficulties with firemen who didn't want to change their ways). I hope I haven't said too much, Sara, never mind, don't be strict with me.

Juniatha

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, March 4, 2021 9:39 PM

Hi Juniatha!

Well, considering the joy of toy trains you know I just have to "spread the gospel," so to speak!  

Wink

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Posted by Juniatha on Thursday, March 4, 2021 10:01 PM

Fireflintlock

Oh, yes, I know! What do you think I have been trying to spread, just beause I think it should be better known, I believe it should be made known ...

No topics for this forum - but just the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjFoQxjgbrs

(Rainy days and mondays - Carpenters)

=J=

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, March 5, 2021 9:03 AM

Oh my, Karen Carpenter.  What a shame, what a loss.

I wonder why so many creative people have a penchant for self-destruction?  

Why ask why?  She wasn't the first and won't be the last.

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Posted by nhrand on Friday, March 5, 2021 10:55 AM

Why A Center Cab, Not A Rear Cab.

         Obviously a locomotive with a wide firebox can be built with a rear cab  --  just look at the many camelbacks that were rebuilt with end cabs.  However, in the period of large scale production of center cabs it was simply thought the center cab had advantages and an end cab was ackward.  Consider first that the period of camelback construction was fairly narrow and about over by 1910  -- camelbacks continued to be built thereafter but not a lot. You could even think of the period as a fad.   The CNJ, for example, built many classes of 2-8-2's and 4-6-2's with fireboxes as wide as their camelbacks but with end cabs.  Most camelbacks had no trailing truck -- 4-4-2's being the major exception.  Placing a cab in the rear would mean a long frame extension which might be weak and make weight distribution more difficult.  Moreover, the end cab would have to be shallow and not give the engineer much room to work.  An end cab might require an unwanted axle to support it.  A center cab provided the engineer with a good view of the track ahead.  Also, turntables could be shorter.  To some extent you might consider the center cab a style or fashion -- you could build an end cab but why when center cabs were considered the standard way to build.  Eventually the disadvantages gained more attention than the advantages.  Look at the many rebuilds  -- they may look a bit ackward but they worked.

For an extensive look at the variety of camelbacks, including Mikados, Pacifics, Mallets and rebuilds, please visit my camelback website: http://sites.google.com/site/camelbacksteamlocomotives

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Posted by Juniatha on Friday, March 5, 2021 8:27 PM

Firelock

"Oh my, Karen Carpenter.  What a shame, what a loss."

Yes - what a voice she had - so much emotion, such a mastering of the tunes!
I have a suspicion she was not so self-destructive by her own:
If you watch the early recordings she played the drums
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kPD4LtA1vo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2uIMRgMm8c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm2eR64CTIw
(Cars play Bach - lots of early photos)
- and she liked it,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=677zUCoqg_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9TmMfnZyY4
had a dispute about it with her brother who thought she should be forward on the stage as the singer and oposed her drumming, there is even a video about that:
(but I couldn't find it now - sorry)

On the later recordings she only sings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDp9b9eYoLM
with Ella Fitzgerald
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76ZKihNCWWE
Rare: Don't cry for me Argentina (although I think in this case she was better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpbRIP--r-o
certainly the best vibrato & power reserve - yet if you don't like her, listen to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObdX5mtK2ns
or this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUPdnzCAk8
or this - well, yeah, of course -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgK-dIPMIp4
but why not, he's a great musician and orchestra leader - uhm, perhaps with his singerins he is not always too fortunate)

In a nutshell, I feel, Karen without percussions was never happy anymore and that, unconciously has led her to neglect her basis of life in a feeling that she didn't want to go on like that. So, I don't want to blame her brother, but ... ... ...       I still do: another man who had not seen the complexity of a woman who in this case happened to be his sister, to whom it just came comfortable that she didn't know how to help herself against his ordering things the way he wanted it.

While we're at it: Myself, I have so often experienced variations of this general theme, it started at school in Berlin where it happened repeatedly that a girl fell in love with one turkish guy or other islamic guy and no talking, no warning, no arguing could save her - until it was too late: she had to learn, an islamic guy a girl can't leave once she has enough of what his initial sweet-talking had turned into. In a few cases I could fight her out, when she was a friend of mine and at a time when these guys had not yet formed such stong gangs as they have now, matters have changed completely now, today even the police think twice before engaging in such cases! But even back then there had been unbelievable inhumane cruelties I don't want to describe here - like what you ask? ok, well, like for instance one girl had her wrists tied by a rope to the back end of his car and then the drove through the woods over the gravel paths at speed draging her along; luckily in a curve she was swept to the outer side and around a tree where the rope was ripped and she was left there with lots of abrasions and broken arms and heavy injuries to the wrists, while he drove away - that's why she survived.

Ok - no more words, I want to forget, but I can't. End of such postings!


Vaya con Dios

Juniatha

 

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