Will they increase 4014's speed?

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Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, June 16, 2019 10:41 PM

In the early 2010s the UP put some significant money into the line between Milwaukee and Minneapolis. They upgraded the rail and some bridges to make the line 286k compliant and increase train speeds, probably to at least Class 3 if not Class 4.

There are a lot of ethanol trains and frac sand trains on the line, even though more frac sand is being sourced closer to some of the shale plays.

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Posted by Lord Atmo on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 1:08 PM

Must've strengthened the Hudson swing bridge too. Very hopeful that this excursion goes nicely so that they'll consider running 844 here in the future

Listen twice, talk once.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 1:49 PM

First Altoona, now Hudson -- be still, my beating heart!

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 3:52 PM

Hudson?  Somebody say HUDSON?  

OK, I know it's not that  Hudson, but boy does that fire the imagination!

Can-you-imagine, 4014 roaring down the old West Shore Line?  Oh wow, what a sight that'd be!

Not gonna happen though.  The old West Shore's now CSX's River Sub, and CSX isn't steam-friendly, or any antique rail equipment friendly.

Still, nice to think about.

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Posted by Lord Atmo on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 7:58 PM

Overmod

First Altoona, now Hudson -- be still, my beating heart!

 

well it has to go through Hudson to get to Altoona. It’s coming from the west

Listen twice, talk once.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 11:24 PM

It will also roll through Baldwin - the village, not the locomotive plant.

Ed Dickens and crew will have to have their papers in order at the border, though, because they are going behind The Cheddar Curtain.

 

Not to be confused with The Iron Curtain. That was the Soviet Bloc. This is cheese blocks.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, June 19, 2019 6:42 AM

Does anybody else remember when the Wisconsin state line was also the oleo barrier?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, June 19, 2019 1:58 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
Does anybody else remember when the Wisconsin state line was also the oleo barrier?

I've heard tell that some of these states refused to let margarine be sold 'colored yellow' like butter; you got a little container of yellow food coloring and had to work it through in order to make the stuff attractive at table...

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Posted by selector on Wednesday, June 19, 2019 2:39 PM

Overmod

 

 
CSSHEGEWISCH
Does anybody else remember when the Wisconsin state line was also the oleo barrier?

 

I've heard tell that some of these states refused to let margarine be sold 'colored yellow' like butter; you got a little container of yellow food coloring and had to work it through in order to make the stuff attractive at table...

 

Unless it has changed recently, Quebec has the same law.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, June 19, 2019 6:25 PM

All I can say is come on up to Wisconsin to see the Big Boy! Everything’s better with cheddar!

And if you get caught behind The Cheddar Curtain without your papers, the wurst they can do to you is Johnsonville bratwurst, Usinger’s bratwurst, Old Wisconsin bratwurst......and Leinenkugel’s beer.

(Which, by the way, has a brewery tour and tasting room a short 13 miles or so north in Chippewa Falls.)

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, June 19, 2019 6:48 PM

Man, with all the good stuff you folks have up in Wisconsin I've just gotta get up there one of these days.  Lots of things I'd love to try.

But NOT the Wisconsin pickled stuffed cabbage I saw pictured in another Kalmbach site, won't say which.  That thing looked nasty...  

I'd need a gallon of Leinenkugel's to kill the taste.

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, June 19, 2019 8:27 PM

Altoona, Hudson and now Baldwin? That sound you hear is Overmod doing a face plant into the margarine and sending his shredded wheat flying onto the floor. 

Late edit-- What's next? I suppose you going to tell us there is a Lionel in there somewhere! 

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, June 20, 2019 11:01 PM

Miningman
That sound you hear is Overmod doing a face plant into the margarine and sending his shredded wheat flying onto the floor.

Canadians!  A child of six would recognize it was Overmod slipping on the margarine (which he had dropped while searching for the food coloring) and doing a faceplant into the Shredded Wheat that he had just sent flying onto the floor.

He can at least take pride he did it at faster speed than 4014, and with minimal foaming.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, June 21, 2019 12:15 AM

Overmod

 minimal foaming.

You have obviously been fitted with one of these:

http://www.mikemassee.com/gallery/d/14656-1/10-01-30_nethercutt_museum-7042.jpg

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, June 21, 2019 6:51 AM

SD70Dude
You have obviously been fitted with one of these:

This could work into a parody of a Bukka White song --

"Don't need no fancy spark plug/To keep me safe from foam; don't need no special meter/keep my primin' under the dome; Keep the rovin'eyes off that Big Boy, keep my wimmin safe at home..."

 

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Posted by Dr D on Saturday, June 22, 2019 2:05 AM

Overmod, et al.

I have followed the restoration and operation of CN6218, GTW5632, PM1225, T&P610, C&O614, N&W1218, N&W611 and the fleet of D&RGW narrow gauge steamers.  Through the usual boiler, staybolt, flue, superheater repairs.  Also the traditional rod brasses, cylinder packing and piston ring repairs which are fairly standard to most steam locomotive restoration projects.

UP4014 stands above the rest in the complete and thorough restoration and engineering evaluation of the locomotive beyond all the others.  Articulated steam being of course much more demanding than most restorations because of the double drive of two locomotives under one boiler.  This is double repair to everything and an effort to match the two locomotive drives to each other to, in as much as is possible, match their operating performance.  This is no small task and the bigger the locomotive the more difficult the work.

Articulated engines were famous for the speed limiting effects of "nosing" both "lateral and vertical," "shimmy" longitudial, and "galloping."  None of these were desirable performance characteristics of the steam locomotive.

I was particularly struck by Ed. Dickens disassembly of the two engine frames in order to completely overhaul the locomotive.  This seemed particularly thorough and I cannot remember the overhaul of N&W1218 being overhauled in this capacity nor can I remember UP3985 being taken down this completely.

Ed. Dickens video gave passing note to all 8 axle sets being shipped to the Strassburg Railroad for wheel truing and overhaul.  Little was also said about the rebuild of the drive rods and pistons and Walscharts valve gear.  He did stress, however, the driver springs were the same on all the late UP steam with the over axle spring sets being a standard part interchangable with UP844, and UP3985.  He then showed off the new axle springs for UP4014 - this is 32 new spring sets for this engine.  Ed then showed off the spring rigging equalizer bars for each 3 each per side one each locomotive drive total of 12 equalizer bars and also unique to UP4014 an equalization frame setup with the front truck.  This allows the spring rigging deflection from the front truck and rear trucks to equalize with each of the driver sets.

Ed then showed a unique coil spring pack located in the frame which controlled the spring rigging deflection as a new engineering concept for the locomotive.  I assume this coil spring pack replaced some sort of leaf spring arrangement.  Although Ed Dickens was not clear on just what existed prior to this treatment of UP4014.

Ed also was particularly focused on the frame pivot between the two engines and the boiler bearing plate which carries the load from the front locomotive and the boiler.  This plate being exactly parallel to the frame and capable of equal load transfer as the front engine pivoted right and left under the boiler. 

All this careful engineering to put UP4014 on two sets of level wheels and frames with the front engine and truck tracking exactly forward.  I believe he made some comment that UP4014 as it came from Pamona had worn in such a way that the front 4 wheel truck would track and pull to the right.

Finally Ed commented that the spring rigging equalizer bars transfering the locomotive weight load from each drive axle to adjoining axles; these pivot points were machined out for roller bearings.  Wow - roller bearing spring rigging!  coil spring sets! That's new!

Alfred Bruce in his Steam Locomotive In America writes about Driving Spring Support and the maintaince problem this represented for steam locomotive design.

"...one of the most aggrivating maintaince conditions on the conventional type of steam locomotive engine is the alignment of the equalizer system, for it constantly requires attention as a result of the wear of the axles and tires and the uneven deflection of the driving springs.  The conditions is perhaps only to be expected with the six springs (on a 4-8-4 type) arranged in series with intervening equalizers of uneven lengths.

When the level alignment becomes disturbed beyond a given limit, all the springs and equalizers tilt sharply either forward or back, depending on the nature of the disturbing element.  This condition was most common with straight equalizers, which are very sensitive in this respect.  The present equalizer, in which the center fulcrum is dropped below the two ends, has proved to be much more stable riding.  The only sure cure for such tilting is to lift the engine weight off the springs and relevel the entire system to the proper height above the rail and in relation to the height of the engine truck.  When this tilting occurs, there had been no material change in the length of any spring hanger, or other part of the system.  The system is just "ornery," and only occasionally is a new hanger gib at one end of the system sufficient to correct the condition.  Tilting of the springs is particularly hard to correct when it occurs on the rear unit of an articulated engine.  This action occurs most frequently in cases where the center of gravity of the spring load and that of the equalizing arrangement are close together.

Although offset equalizers decrease the sensitiveness of the spring rigging, the entire engine must be releveled when tilting occurs, and the height reduced to suit.  The coupler and pilot on the bumper must then be raised a corresponding amount..."

------------------

I would venture to say that Alfred Bruce would have found Ed. Dickens re- treatment of the spring rigging on UP4014 quite novel and interesting and would from my perspective constitute a re-engineering of the locomotive.

It is not surprising that UP4014 is projected to stray far from its "mainline haunt of the past."  All the way to the small curves and rough trackage of Wisconson.  This is significant to what Ed Dickens thinks "Big Boy" is now capapble of above that it was not capable of before.

Yes, I think we will eventually see "Big Boy" do some fast running just as the "Challenger" did.

Dr. D

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, June 23, 2019 9:05 AM

Dr D
UP4014 stands above the rest in the complete and thorough restoration and engineering evaluation of the locomotive beyond all the others.

This is the take-home message of the whole "quality management" program that characterizes the current 'steam team' (and represents something the previous team considered unnecessary, inappropriate bureaucratic massive overkill -- but that's another discussion...)  You may assume that all the frame reconstruction, analysis of motionwork parts, etc. were all done 'within the model' and have been fully documented "for future reference".

Articulated engines were famous for the speed limiting effects of "nosing" both "lateral and vertical," "shimmy" longitudial, and "galloping."  None of these were desirable performance characteristics of the steam locomotive.

If you look at Bruce's following reference, you will see that one of the things he was proudest of (at Alco) was solving these things in the Challenger design (and of course by extension in the Big Boys).  The thing you mention about "the frame pivot between the two engines and the boiler bearing plate which carries the load from the front locomotive and the boiler.  This plate being exactly parallel to the frame and capable of equal load transfer as the front engine pivoted right and left under the boiler" is a paraphrase of this.  (N&W fans are sure to chime in to say the A class pioneered this approach several years earlier, and I consider them right, but it goes without saying that without this approach to 'equalize' over the full driver wheelbase these wouldn't have been any better high-speed engines than any of the 'legacy' simple articulateds -- particularly the two Baldwin 2-6-6-2s that spawned the whole high-speed-articulated movement.  (Before anyone comments on the obvious, I don't consider any of the ATSF high-drivered Mallets to have been high-speed in any real sense...)

Ed then showed a unique coil spring pack located in the frame which controlled the spring rigging deflection as a new engineering concept for the locomotive.  I assume this coil spring pack replaced some sort of leaf spring arrangement.  Although Ed Dickens was not clear on just what existed prior to this treatment of UP4014.

I suspect you will find that this is 'snubbing' rather than something in the primary suspension, much the same function as the multiple coil springs in the revised T1 rigging.  "Ordinary" locomotives damp resonances in the suspension only with gravity and friction.  Snubbers 'break' the ability of resonant action to build up force -- the GG1s were built with these but they turned out unnecessary (or perhaps ineffective ... I know of no definitive reference that says why they were removed and I hope someone has one.)

 

Alfred Bruce in his Steam Locomotive In America writes about Driving Spring Support and the maintaince problem this represented for steam locomotive design.

"...one of the most aggravating maintaince conditions on the conventional type of steam locomotive engine is the alignment of the equalizer system, for it constantly requires attention as a result of the wear of the axles and tires and the uneven deflection of the driving springs.  The conditions is perhaps only to be expected with the six springs (on a 4-8-4 type) arranged in series with intervening equalizers of uneven lengths.

When the level alignment becomes disturbed beyond a given limit, all the springs and equalizers tilt sharply either forward or back, depending on the nature of the disturbing element.  This condition was most common with straight equalizers, which are very sensitive in this respect.  The present equalizer, in which the center fulcrum is dropped below the two ends, has proved to be much more stable riding.  The only sure cure for such tilting is to lift the engine weight off the springs and relevel the entire system to the proper height above the rail and in relation to the height of the engine truck.  When this tilting occurs, there had been no material change in the length of any spring hanger, or other part of the system.  The system is just "ornery," and only occasionally is a new hanger gib at one end of the system sufficient to correct the condition.  Tilting of the springs is particularly hard to correct when it occurs on the rear unit of an articulated engine.  This action occurs most frequently in cases where the center of gravity of the spring load and that of the equalizing arrangement are close together.

You will note that this is metastability, and it is interesting that no one in the classic steam design world seems to have understood precisely why the system was 'ornery' or how this related to the positive effects of equalization -- also poorly theoretically understood.

It's clear to most that dividing the spring rigging on a 4-8-4 in the center of the driving wheelbase (the front two pairs equalized with the lead truck, and the rear pairs with the trailing truck) produces far better riding (and fewer 'ornery' problems) than trying to carry the equalization straight back all four pairs, worse yet tying the trailer in with that.  Again it's useful to review the suspension revisions on the T1 from circa 1941 to late 1947, as in that history you have a little nutshell recap of the principles to be followed.

Although offset equalizers decrease the sensitiveness of the spring rigging, the entire engine must be releveled when tilting occurs, and the height reduced to suit.  The coupler and pilot on the bumper must then be raised a corresponding amount..."

Fascinating, wouldn't you say?  Up there with the idea that if you have a bad enough set of viruses and rootkit infections on a PC, you're better off throwing the thing away than trying to reload the OS and applications...  not.

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Posted by NS6770fan on Tuesday, July 09, 2019 10:01 PM

kgbw49

Hopefully the display in Altoona will be right across from the 400 Club.

 

I first read this thinking Altoona PA! If only the bb would come all the way out to Enola or philly... I can only dream...

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Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, July 10, 2019 9:53 AM

Haven’t had a chance to check. Does anyone know if Big Boy is running in the 50-60 MPH speed range across the plains?

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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, July 20, 2019 8:53 PM

Here is s short YouTube video of Big Boy heading from Mason City, IA to St Paul, MN.

There are a couple of times in this video where Big Boy appears to be running at close to track speed, which from what I have seen on the line from UP freight trains seems to be in the 50 MPH range.

Regardless, to borrow a line from the Norte Dame fight song, it is definitely shaking down the thunder from the sky!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lxgPrM9HO98

In many of the videos across Iowa, it is a bit hard to time but it looks like there are instances when Big Boy’s drivers are rotating four times per second.

If my timing is accurate, doing the math with the distance a 68-inch driver travels in one rotation, that would indicate a speed of 48.57 mph.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, July 20, 2019 10:32 PM

From Omaha to Boone, they kept the speed to around 40mph.  I think we hit a high of about 45 +/- coming off the hill at Arcadia.

Jeff

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Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:23 AM

Thank you for that inside information, Jeff!

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