Big boy

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Big boy
Posted by big bird on Tuesday, June 12, 2018 5:17 PM

Hi

We all know the story of the guy who wrote Big Boy with a chalk on the front of the first loco when it was ready to get out of the shop in Schenectady .

But what was the original name of the loco when they ordered it ??

I heard Wasatch ( excuse me I am not sure of the spelling ) because the monsters were supoosed to work that area .

Thanks for your help !!!

Louis

 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, June 12, 2018 5:23 PM

From what I've read and heard the "Big Boys" were indeed supposed to be called "Wasatch" types after the mountain range they were meant to cover.

But that unknown ALCO worker with the chalk beat everyone to the punch!

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Posted by switch7frg on Tuesday, June 12, 2018 8:41 PM

SurpriseI saw that photo of that 1st. Big Boy. That fellow with the chalk looked like he was gonna  grab some cookies from a jar.  I haved looked  for that photo for some time. Any hint of what issue of trains that the Photo is in.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 7:10 AM

The stories behind the names of various steam locomotive types are fascinating, going at least as far back as "Consolidation" for a 2-8-0.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by 54light15 on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 12:11 PM

Yeah, what exactly is being "consolidated?" For that matter, what is meant by Manchester "United?"  What is exactly does that mean? Not to get off track here. 

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 2:48 PM

54light15
Yeah, what exactly is being "consolidated?"

   According to "A History Of the American Locomotive--It's Development:1830-1880" by John H. White, Jr., the locomotive was first ordered by the Lehigh & Mahanoy Railroad, and while the locomotive was being built, they consolidated with the Lehigh Valley Railroad.   The locomotive was named in honor of this consolidation.

_____________

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 3:37 PM

Paul of Covington
54light15
Yeah, what exactly is being "consolidated?"

   According to "A History Of the American Locomotive--It's Development:1830-1880" by John H. White, Jr., the locomotive was first ordered by the Lehigh & Mahanoy Railroad, and while the locomotive was being built, they consolidated with the Lehigh Valley Railroad.   The locomotive was named in honor of this consolidation.

Mystery solved!

Now if I could just figure out where they got the "Ten Wheeler" name from I'd be set!

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by 54light15 on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 5:26 PM

And why Pacific? Or Atlantic? Mogul? Mikado? I understand Decapod, but those? 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:01 PM

54light15

Mikado?

IIRC one of the first large batches was built for export to Japan.

The name was changed to "MacArthur" during WWII.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 7:25 PM

Per information at www.steamlocomotive.com, the first designed-from-the-start as a 4-4-2 locomotive was built by Baldwin in 1894 for the Atlantic Coast Line, hence the moniker "Atlantic".

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=USA&wheel=4-4-2

As to "Pacific", the first purpose-built units were built for New Zealand Railways by Baldwin in 1901, and in 1902 Missouri Pacific purchased the first 4-6-2 built for use in the United States from ALCO.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/misc/wheels.php

 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 7:25 PM

54light15

And why Pacific? Or Atlantic? Mogul? Mikado? I understand Decapod, but those? 

 

From what I've read, "Atlantic"  for a 4-4-2 type comes from the Atlantic Coast Line, the first to use the type.  "Pacific"  originates with a sale of that type to a railroad in New Zealand, it had to cross the Pacific to get there.   "Mikado" for the 2-8-2 types from the fact the first ones made were made for the Japanese railroads. 

Mogul?  You got me on that one.  Aside from the rulers of the old Mogul Empire in India (also called Mughals) I've got no idea how it was applied to a 2-6-0.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 7:37 PM

Well, I know the photo is in here:

Personally, I think it's the work of 2 people.  The first one drew on a big "V" (which I suspect had nothing to do with war victory but rather an industrial accomplishment).  Then the second person turned the right leg of the "V" into a "Y" and wrote the rest of it as "O-B _G-I-B" from right to left.

Or maybe the second guy turned the first guy's "Y" into a "V".  Who knows.

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 9:24 PM

SD70Dude

 

 
54light15

Mikado?

 

 

IIRC one of the first large batches was built for export to Japan.

The name was changed to "MacArthur" during WWII.

 

Or a "Water Level Route" that wouldn't be caught dead with a "Mountain", hence "Mohawk".  

Or a western road that had "Baltics" in lieu of "Atlantics"?

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 10:20 PM

Firelock is on target again with the origin of Mogul:

http://steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=USA&wheel=2-6-0

 AKA Valley Malley on the Southern Pacific for their prodigious pulling power On the level San Joaquin Valley lines.

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/180675/

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, June 14, 2018 2:17 PM

Baltics were 4-6-4s, not 4-4-2s.   I think the Milwaukee called their 4-6-4s Baltics and not Hudsons.  But so did European railroads.  There may have been an alternative name for Atlantics, but I don't know it.  Even the Sante Fe called their 4-4-2s Atlantics.  I think SP did also.  Who knows, maybe they hoped to reach the East Coast some day in the future?

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Posted by kgbw49 on Thursday, June 14, 2018 6:10 PM

Dave, you are right about the MILW 4-6-4 Baltics. The City of Milwaukee has a strong German heritage (Pabst, Schlitz, etc.) and there was no way they would name a locomotive after a Dutchman!

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, June 17, 2018 1:01 AM

You are correct about the German influence in Milwaukee.  When I was working for Bolt Beranek and Newman, aoustical consultants, we were consultants for the Uhlein Perfomring Arts Center in Milwaukee.  So, a German consultant, Prof. Kraemer, was hired as advisor to us, and he was a real assett.  I showed him hospitality on occasion by treating him (on my BBN expence account, of course) a Maeders, a fine German retoraunt that I hope is stil in business.

I was not the primarh consjltant on the project, but simply assistant Peter Tappan, the sound ssytem designer, and Ron McKay, Larry Kirkegaard and Ted Shultz, who did the room acoustics, and Bob Hoover on noise control.  One idea of mine did get implemented and is still in use, the Aeolian Skinner organ is stored  in the basement and rises on an elevator to stage floor level at the stage rear when used for concerts and recitals.  This allows the stage, with a mechanized demoutable stage enclosure, to be used for drama, both theater and opera.

And then for a while I had the great privelege of riding to and from Miwaukee on the Chicago Orchestra's special C&NW train before and after their concerts in Milwaukee.  Three regular reclining-seat long-distance coaches were used with on E-unit,  I think Ben Heineman was still running the railroad in 1969, and he was Chicago Symphony Orchestra Patron. 

I also stopped off on my train trip from Brandon, Manitoba back to Downers Grove, (actuall my car was at Glenside), in Milwaukee to hear Golda Meir's famous speech in the hall, with entrnce via the stage door because of the BBN  connection.

Golda Meir, Israel's only woman Prime Minister so far, moved to Israel from Milwaukee.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, June 17, 2018 1:51 PM

For the record, this is a Baltic:

This was Gaston du Bousquet's (of de Glehn-du Bousquet fame) last and probably best design, 1909-1911.  If I remember correctly they were the largest engines in Europe at that time.  They seem to have been worked effectively well into the 1930s; they were just a little too big for contemporary requirements (and of course subsequent developments in France ran to more efficient Pacifics).  Note the relatively small, lean boiler.

The Milwaukee Road was responsible for the first modern 4-6-4 in the United States, and adopted the name they used for it from this class.  However, since they were somewhat cash-poor (in part due to the Pacific extension) they didn't actually build F6s until after NYC had the original J1 running and named.

As a sort of compromise, the distinction is made that a 4-6-4 with a pin-guided trailing truck is a "Baltic", while one with a Delta-style (whether correct Bissel proportion or not) is a "Hudson".  This is a good working distinction.

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Posted by big bird on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 7:57 AM

Thanks I thought I read something like that . Original name Wasatch .

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Posted by big bird on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 8:01 AM

I thought he had writen that on the first one getting out of the shop ?

In the picture posted it's loco # 4014 ...

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Posted by Penny Trains on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 6:50 PM

big bird
I thought he had writen that on the first one getting out of the shop ? In the picture posted it's loco # 4014 ...

You're correct, it was loco 4000, the first 4-8-8-4.  But I couldn't find that photo on the web to link to.  What I did link was the "recreation" the UP steam crew did on 4014 before they moved it from L.A. to Cheyenne.

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Posted by big bird on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 7:11 PM

Penny Trains

 

 
big bird
I thought he had writen that on the first one getting out of the shop ? In the picture posted it's loco # 4014 ...

 

You're correct, it was loco 4000, the first 4-8-8-4.  But I couldn't find that photo on the web to link to.  What I did link was the "recreation" the UP steam crew did on 4014 before they moved it from L.A. to Cheyenne.

 

1

Ha ha now I get it !

Thanks .

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Posted by big bird on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 7:11 PM

Penny Trains

 

 
big bird
I thought he had writen that on the first one getting out of the shop ? In the picture posted it's loco # 4014 ...

 

You're correct, it was loco 4000, the first 4-8-8-4.  But I couldn't find that photo on the web to link to.  What I did link was the "recreation" the UP steam crew did on 4014 before they moved it from L.A. to Cheyenne.

 

Penny Trains

Ok thanks !!!

 

 
big bird
I thought he had writen that on the first one getting out of the shop ? In the picture posted it's loco # 4014 ...

 

You're correct, it was loco 4000, the first 4-8-8-4.  But I couldn't find that photo on the web to link to.  What I did link was the "recreation" the UP steam crew did on 4014 before they moved it from L.A. to Cheyenne.

 

1

Ha ha now I get it !

Thanks .

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 6:38 AM

Ineresting that the UP had the only 4-8-8-4s, and also, the  only 4-12-2s, and the only Big Blows, nd the only dual-engine Alco frieght power.

N&W had the only 4-8-0s

CP had the only $-4-4s except one for the B&O and of course the PRR 01 elecrics, which don't count.

Union RR the only 0-10-2s

What else?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 6:47 AM

N&W may have been noted for its 4-8-0's in branchline service but it wasn't the only operator.

SP also had dual-engine Alco freight power in the C643H's.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Backshop on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 7:08 AM

The Reading also had some 4-4-4's.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 10:51 AM

Here is a list of users of 4-8-0 locomotives:

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=USA&wheel=4-8-0

Here is a picture of an SP “Mastodon” in service in 1955, similar to the way N&W used their 4-8-0 units:

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/whyte/4-8-0/USA/photos/sp2914-weber.jpg

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Posted by Penny Trains on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 6:23 PM

daveklepper
CP had the only $-4-4s except one for the B&O

And yet Lionel chose to make so many 4-4-4's over the years:

OK, I know it's a "turn radius thing".  Wink

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, June 21, 2018 7:21 AM

How or why different 'roads purchased different wheel arrangements on locomotives really depended on those 'roads ideas of what a locomotive should be, and they certainly all had their own ideas.  The N&W liked the 4-8-0 wheel set-up, but not too many others did.  Some tried the type but didn't stay with it as long as the N&W did.

Same with the 2-10-0's.  It was never super-popular, however the Erie purchased 75 of the Russian Decapods stranded here in the US after the Bolshevik Revolution.  Certainly they got 'em at at a deep discount, but in the end the Erie was quite happy with them and got a lot of good service out of them.  So did the Susquehanna, who got some of the Erie "Bolsheviks,"  as the crews called them.

Neat picture of that Lionel Standard Gauge 4-4-4 Penny Trains posted, isn't it?  What you can't get from the picture is the sheer size of the thing, see one in person and it'll take your breath away, trust me.  Back in the Thirties those trains were for rich kids only! 

How expensive were they?  Well, a Lionel "Blue Comet" Standard Gauge set, or another Standard Gauge set with that 4-4-4 locomotive, complete with track and transformer, in 1939 cost $75.  That same $75 at that time would have gotten you a Winchester 30-30 rifle, a Colt .38 revolver, and you would have had $5 change coming to you!

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, June 22, 2018 7:30 PM

Or a Kelvinator refrigerator!  Big Smile

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