Latest 4014 update

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Latest 4014 update
Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 05, 2018 10:31 AM

Ed Dickens discusses some aspects of the 4014 restoration, here concentrating on lubrication.  Some interesting details; note the emphasis on 'many years of service' (which is NOT to be taken as indicating 3985 will not get 'the treatment' soon after 4014 is done)

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Friday, January 05, 2018 11:19 AM

The plan was always 844 first then 4014 then 3985 to get them all up and running.  My hubby and I have a close friend in the steam shop at the UP in Cheyenne they are planning on getting 3985 back up in running in 2021 2022 at the latest.  They have learned so much from the 844 and 4014 overhauls that they can do 3985 faster and also have reestablished a supply chain of parts makers for the engines.

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Posted by selector on Friday, January 05, 2018 11:36 AM

This is a salutary evolution with all concerted efforts with a lot of generalizability between them, even if their goals and processes are somewhat different.  The more you do, the more you find generalizability, some redundancies, and you just get better and faster at doing.  If nothing else, it helps to keep labour costs down, or volunteer/paid hours.

The UP must be doing very well, including in determined leadership and marketing, for them to have this strong commitment to a extensive steam programme.  Ironic, sadly, that the 611 folks are beginning to feel the pinch in the east.

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Saturday, January 06, 2018 7:38 AM

This is according to our friend in the steam shop.  What they have found with the 4014 844 and looking at the blueprints of the 3985 design is that all 3 take the same style of staybolts same thickness of steel in the boilers 3985 and 4014 use the same wheel diameters and cylinder size trailing and lead trucks for all 3 are the same part numbers according to the prints.  Lubricators air pumps and dynamos are all the same.  Whistles are the same also.  The only difference they found is lengths of tubing and superheaters and size of the fireboxes.  They were designed to be easy to work on in the 40's and have some common parts even back then so if they needed something for one of them it would be in stock at all times. 

 

Or as my friend in our last phone call together I can see how ALCO used the KISS principle here big time why except for the wheel arrangements all 3 take the same parts in the same places with minor differences in length depending on which type it is.  He goes of course the Driving rods are different but beyond that we could almost pull parts off of 3985 and throw them on the 4014 if we wanted.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, January 06, 2018 9:35 AM

Shadow, that is very interesting and fascinating insight indeed! It makes a lot of sense that ALCO and UP would do that. Simplifying the spare parts inventory makes an awful lot of sense.

Just one question for my curiousity only - when you mention that the wheel diameters are the same between 3985 and 4014, are you referring to the leading and trailing trucks?

The only reason I am asking is for general knowledge - I have been under the impression that driver size of 4014 at 68 inches was one inch smaller than those on 3985 at 69 inches from reading various published material. I had actually always wondered when I would read that information why UP hadn't set the Big Boy driver size at 69 inches for commonality of drivers and other parts with the Challenger drivers since both locomotives had the third drivers as the main drivers on each engine.

The only thing I could think of was perhaps it must have been that they needed the 8 inch shorter wheelbase (from having each driver pair be one inch smaller in diameter at 68 inches compared to the Challengers at 69 inches) in order to fit the Big Boys on the turntables.

Thanks for any further information on that if possible. Thanks!

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, January 06, 2018 10:01 AM

There's a lot to be said for parts interchangeability.  Going for the maximum amount of parts interchangeability was one of the reasons (although not the only reason, of course) for the US victory in World War Two. 

The Germans and the Japanese never learned that lesson, and it hurt them.

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, January 06, 2018 10:58 AM

Well I'm not sure about that Firelock....the Kriegslok 'war locomotive' was built in enormous numbers, 6,700+ of them. and simplified to a point where repairs could be done just about anywhere , out on the road and such. Don't think we had 6,700 of any one locomotive design, but that many Erie Berkshires would be nice.  

Those war locomotives survived in substantial numbers right up until the year 2000. That's saying something. Pennsy's Decapod's did not fair so well. 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, January 06, 2018 11:42 AM

You're right about that Miningman, however the Kriegslok's never entered my mind, although maybe they should have.

I was thinking more in terms of weapons and machinery such as aircraft, panzers, trucks, support vehicles, small arms and such. 

Certainly nothing wrong with those German 2-10-0's of any kind, top quality, just what you'd expect from the Germans.

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Posted by 54light15 on Saturday, January 06, 2018 12:53 PM

Theres' quite a few Kriegsloks still running in Germany and running on the main lines. There's not near as many heritage railways in Germany as there are in the U.K. so the various organizations run them on the main. I was on a streetcar in Munich once and a 2-10-0 pullng a passenger train went over an overpass. I sure wasn't expecting that! 

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, January 06, 2018 12:55 PM

Firelock--Well of course I know what you mean. Seems as if there was a new model Panzer every 6 months. The self propelled guns, Ferdinand's, were based on a specific Panzer design though. None of that was going to stop a bazillion superb T34's however. 

Now the thought of 6,000 Erie Berkshires and lets throw in 6,000 Niagaras could quite possibly have staved off Dieselization for a long time. Lets get all crazy funky and say the duplex concept was developed a bit earlier and they got it 99% right the first time and say 4,000 T1's were built as a standard passenger model for use just about everywhere just for fun. All good!

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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, January 06, 2018 2:08 PM

Okay, and then I vote for about 10,000 CPR G3 Pacifics for local freights and branchlines to keep Mr. Diesel on the drawing boards until about 1970! We'll drop the driver diameter to 70 inches so they can interchange with those Erie-model Berks.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, January 06, 2018 2:34 PM

6,000 Berkshires!

6,000 Niagrees!

4,000 T1's!

10,000 CPR G-3s with that blend of British/American style and Canadian class!

Gotta stop now, I'm getting the shakes!

Oh, yeah, Adolf trying to hold off a gazillion T-34's.  You know, the Germans managed to capture an intact T-34 and gave serious though to copying it but then thought, "Ja, it's good, but we can do better."

They probably should have just copied the thing, it would have been easier to produce.  A military historian comparing German and Russian tanks put it best, "The Panthers and Tigers were built by watchmakers, the T-34's were built by blacksmiths, and in the end the blacksmiths won."

Or to quote Comrade Lenin, "Quantity has a quality all it's own."

Of course, Adolf could have avoided all the trouble he got himself into if he'd had sense enough to quit while he was ahead, but then, he wouldn't have been Adolf.

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Sunday, January 07, 2018 9:27 AM

Here is something to think about 85K T-34's of all types 15K KV series the first line of Soviet Heavy tanks 4K IS and IS-2 tanks along with 50K Shermans of all types going up against 15K Panzer 4's 4K Tigers 2K Tiger 2's 8K Panthers.  That was the tank production in WW2.  Yes German tanks could take out 4 tanks per loss however when outnumbered 10 to 1 your in deeper trouble.  Then throw in air cover the Allies outbuilt them 5 to 1 overall the Germans were screwed.  Let alone the population overmatch.  

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, January 07, 2018 11:15 AM

All true, STCO.  Like I said, know enough to quit while you're ahead.  If Hitler stayed in his own backyard no-one would have bothered with him, and he would have died in his bed. 

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Posted by Boyd on Monday, January 08, 2018 11:56 PM

But Hitler was drugged up and insane........ 

Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 6:44 AM

At the begining of the war he had full control of his mind.  After 43 he was starting to go downhill.  He had several neurological conditions one of which they think was dementia also was diagnosed with Parkinson's.  Yes he was addicted to basically methampethamines heck most of the SS took the same stuff also along with the Luftwaffe pilots.  However his nation never stood a chance after Dec 10th 41 when he declared war on the USA.  Why that date even though Roosevelt and Churchill wanted the USA in the war in Europe badly the USA had not been attacked by Germany directly so Hitler had to open the door for us to come in.  

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Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 4:54 PM

Hitler and drugs.  Several years back I watched two very interesting British-produced documentarys on Hitler and his personal physician Dr. Morell, who may not have been as much of a quack as popular opinion said he was, and the crux of the show was just how doped up was ol' Adolf?

Turns out, not much.  Morell's formula books are still in existance, and the chemists consulted for the shows reproduced the drugs Morell made for Hitler.  The drugs were, in their estimation, basically dietary supplements and "pep" pills, just enough to keep Hitler going, they weren't addictive or mind-bending.

So, all the decisions Hitler made were done in a sober state, it was him making the choices, not the drugs.

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Posted by 54light15 on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 5:33 PM

It's a shame that Adolf survived the First World War. I've read where a German count or someone who met him in 1919 said something along these lines, "If I knew what trouble that little guttersnipe would cause I would have shot him with no more compunction that killing a fly." 

I've seen a T-34 in a museum in Ontario. It's rather small as are most all of the armoured vehicles. There are Shermans outside legion halls in small towns. Not very big, either. The T-34 was based on an American design by Walter Christie who designed and built a transverse engined, front wheel drive racing car in 1904. I wonder if any of those exist? It would be perfect to take to the U.K. for the Brighton Run every November. You would qualify and you would win! 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 6:01 PM

The man who could have shot Hitler?  Check this out...

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-28593256

It is true?  Who knows?

I've been in a T-34, there was one on outdoor display at The Basic School in Quantico VA when I was there in 1975.  Captured during the Korean War, you could see the impact area of the shell that killed the tanks crew. It was open not locked or sealed shut, and anyone could go inside.  Man, it was tight in there!  The average Russian tanker couldn't have been any taller than 5'8".  I'm a six-footer and I could barely move in the thing.

The traverse and gun elevation cranks still worked, by the way, although it took some effort to rotate the turret.

By the way, know who bankrolled Walter Christie's experimental tank, the "Christie Crawler?"  An independently wealthy US Army major named George Patton!

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Posted by Penny Trains on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 8:17 PM

54light15
It's a shame that Adolf survived the First World War.

Flip it around and ask what would have happened if he hadn't.  I personally believe the "alternate enemy" would have been Stalin and Europe would still be a permanent part of the USSR.  Consider the allies lucky that they got the dumb and sloppy one while they had the chance to develop the only weapon that could hold back the cold, cunning and relentless one.  Instead of Stalin getting the bomb and using it on Washington and New York before anyone over here had any inkling of what they were up to.

Was it the Twilight Zone or the Outer Limits that had an episode about a woman traveling back in time to be ol' shickelgruber's nurse when he was a baby?  She succeeded in killing the infant Adolf but his father (he was his mother's uncle) went out and bought a baby from a gypsy.  Temporal paradox plus Murphy's law equals the suffering of humanity.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 10:42 PM

Firelock76
By the way, know who bankrolled Walter Christie's experimental tank, the "Christie Crawler?"

You wouldn't by any chance be referring to the 'Christie Cruiser', would you?  The Christie Crawler I know was a conversion for truck chassis to create a half-track, not at all the idea of using rubber-tired full-height roadwheels as idlers.

It does have to be said that if there had been no V2 it's unlikely that Billy Borden would have had the insight that led to the idea of Rocket Pearl Harbors; the weapon you're describing is not the atomic bomb but the hydrogen bomb that Sakharov would have independently achieved regardless of our (somewhat dead-ended) achievements with Mike, and of course Stalin pushed development of practical multistage ICBMs as an 'effective straitjacket for that noisy little shopkeeper'.  I honestly don't know whether we'd have pushed MX-774 early had Uncle Adolf not been involved ...

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Posted by 54light15 on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 10:46 PM

Penny Trains, that sounds more like The Outer Limits than Twilight Zone. OL was a bit more science fictioney, wheras TZ were more like morality plays but having said that, TZ had it's share of science fiction too. "To Serve Man." Man, The Simsons did  a dead-on parody of that one! 

I wonder, just how long would it have taken the world to pull out of the Great Depression had the war not started? It could just maybe might have been a chance of a possibility that FDR and Churchill did all they could to keep Hitler alive so the war could boost the economy. I love "alternative fiction." 

Just how did George get his money? I knew he was wealthy, I mean I saw "Patton." Only the once, though. If I saw it three times like the 'ol Trickster, I mighta bombed Cambodia!  

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:15 AM

Most "alternative history" is little more than an amusing game since it often seems that the writer changes one item without considering the other factors that raised that issue in the first place.  If a certain noncom did not survive WW1, the underlying situation of German nationalism and the "stab in the back" mentality that would have bred another similar personality is usually not considered.  It would be like saying that the Russian Revolution would not have occurred if the Okhrana killed Ulyanov and Bronstein after 1905.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:28 AM

Meanwhile, back in Cheyenne....it will be interesting to see if UP ever does anything “cool” with 4014, such as they did with 3985 about 20 years ago:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU

Or this with 844:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RU9uEwSGp9M

Maybe perhaps beating the Iowa Interstate record for heaviest steam-hauled freight in the 21st Century that they did with the double-headed QJs.

It would be amazing to see 4014 pull:

A coal train along the Nebraska Triple Track

A unit grain train on the Overland Route

Stacks over Beaumont Hill to Tucson

A unit frac sand train from DFW to West Texas

Anyrhing over Donner if the clearances work in the snow sheds and The Big Hole

It is probably just wishful thinking, but that would be the icing on the cake.

Having 4014 back in another 15-18 months or so is going to be incredible.

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 8:37 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
It would be like saying that the Russian Revolution would not have occurred if the Okhrana killed Ulyanov and Bronstein after 1905.

Highly likely it wouldn't have occurred as it did, isn't it -- if you're talking about the OCTOBER Revolution, not the February one.

Sometimes actual history is driven by far more unlikely events than would be considered verisimilitude for alternative history...

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:58 AM

Truth is stranger than fiction.  Fiction has to stick to possibilities, truth doesn't.

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Posted by 54light15 on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 4:31 PM

Remember "Uncle Duke" in the Doonesbury comic strip? He said many years ago, "This is why I don't do drugs anymore. Who can tell the difference?" True then, even truer today. 

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Posted by Penny Trains on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:38 PM

54light15
that sounds more like The Outer Limits than Twilight Zone

Found it.  It was from the hour long 2002 incarnation of the Twilight Zone with Forest Whitaker doing the intros.  The episode was "Cradle of Darkness".  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734776/plotsummary?ref_=tt_stry_pl

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Posted by Penny Trains on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:40 PM

Anyways.  Back to our regularly scheduled Big Boy...

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Posted by 54light15 on Thursday, January 11, 2018 2:50 PM

Penny Trains, thanks for that. I didn't know that there was a re-intro of Twilight Zone. But, that plot for the episode you describe sounds a bit like "The City on the Edge of Forever." from the original Star Trek. Said ST episode was one of the best, written by Harlan Ellison. 

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