Flying Yankee restoration ‘back on track’

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, October 06, 2017 7:39 PM

There is no analogy between the Flying Yankee and anything involving steam engines with respect to PTC.  Any exemption in Part 230 applies only to steam.

There may be other exemptions but I suspect any mainline excursion ‘should’ still have PTC protections even if nominally exempted.  I expect insurance to become even more ridiculously overexpensive if at least some logical parts of PTC protection are not implemented.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Friday, October 06, 2017 8:27 PM

Good point. I imagine the Flying Yankee folks are treating PTC as a bridge they'll cross when they come to it.  A question, does the Illinois Railroad Museum's Burlington E5 have PTC?

It did run off-museum property a year or two ago.

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Posted by Buslist on Saturday, October 07, 2017 5:15 AM

Firelock76

Good point. A question, does the Illinois Railroad Museum's Burlington E5 have PTC?

It did run off-museum property a year or two ago.

 

No it does not and a member of the BOD told me there are no plans to equip it, but knowing their ability to scare up donations I wouldn’t be surprised if it got a set of on board equipment donated.

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Posted by desertdog on Saturday, October 21, 2017 2:13 PM

Back in the 50s someone gave me a Lionel Flying Yankee. I threw it in with the rest of my Lionel "stuff" when I sold everything for $50. One of many teenage regrets...

 

John Timm

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, October 21, 2017 2:51 PM

desertdog

Back in the 50s someone gave me a Lionel Flying Yankee. I threw it in with the rest of my Lionel "stuff" when I sold everything for $50. One of many teenage regrets...

 

John Timm

 

Check the "Resources" tab on the top of the website, select "Coming Events," and follow the prompts to look for "Train Shows."  There's Lionel "Flying Yankees" out there, I see them every once in a while at said shows.  Keep your fingers crossed and you just might find yourself another one!

I don't know the mind-set of all on this Forum, but if any of you haven't been to a train show you should go!  They're a lot of fun, and who knows what you'll find? 

Toy trains of all kinds, trains for the serious modeler, books, videos, railroadiana, precision tools, quite a few things to see.  Plus some fun "B-S'n" with other railfans if you make the connection.

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Saturday, October 21, 2017 6:21 PM

I checked the Bay site several Lionel and MTH including new in box prewar setups price for those was over 1700 bucks MTH new in box was under 400 so you have your choice.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, October 21, 2017 7:31 PM

Shadow the Cats owner
I checked the Bay site several Lionel and MTH including new in box prewar setups price for those was over 1700 bucks MTH new in box was under 400 so you have your choice.

Not as bad as that: remember that Mr. Timm's example was USED when it was given to him, so you should compare it with the other unrestored sets on eBay, many of which are in the $345 to $400 range.

I suspect his wistfulness is not at all in wishing he had the Lionel version back 'to keep'; it's much more wishing he had it back so he could realize more than $50 (even adjusted for inflation?) by selling it now.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, October 21, 2017 7:37 PM

Now , now, you don't know that for certain.  All of us have things in our past we got rid of and years later were sorry we did.  Maybe it's for monetary reasons but mostly it's nostalgia, sometimes for that "Best Christmas ever!"  Sometimes just for the memories. 

I've got a Lionel 2018 I bought just for that reason.  My original I gave to my then ten year old nephew because it seemed the right thing to do.  Then after a year I started missing it, go I bought a substitute. I'm not sorry I gave it to him though, you should have seen his face light up when I did!

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Posted by desertdog on Thursday, November 02, 2017 12:41 PM

Overmod

 

 
Shadow the Cats owner
I checked the Bay site several Lionel and MTH including new in box prewar setups price for those was over 1700 bucks MTH new in box was under 400 so you have your choice.

 

Not as bad as that: remember that Mr. Timm's example was USED when it was given to him, so you should compare it with the other unrestored sets on eBay, many of which are in the $345 to $400 range.

I suspect his wistfulness is not at all in wishing he had the Lionel version back 'to keep'; it's much more wishing he had it back so he could realize more than $50 (even adjusted for inflation?) by selling it now.

 

The money would be nice, but the truth be told, I wish I had not only the Flying Yankee but the GP-7 (it was really a GP-9, was it not?) and the diesel switcher my brother custom painted for me and the Rutland box car and the #1666 steamer and all the oddball stuff like a Thomas log car, and...

 

John Timm

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, November 02, 2017 1:21 PM

desertdog
the truth be told, I wish I had not only the Flying Yankee but the GP-7 (it was really a GP-9, was it not?) and the diesel switcher my brother custom painted for me and the Rutland box car and the #1666 steamer and all the oddball stuff like a Thomas log car, and...

I stand corrected.

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Posted by Falcon48 on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 6:43 PM

Firelock76

As I understand it pieces of antique rail equipment are exempt from PTC, which is why you don't see anyone sweating bullets over how to install it in steam locomotives.

The "Flying Yankee" certainly fits into the antique category.

I'll admit though, I could be wrong on this.

 

I'm late to this thread, but I just happened to see this post about steam engines/antique rail equipment and PTC.

This is a very real issue, and steam loco operators (or other "antique rail equipment" operators) who expect to run over rail lines equipped with PTC need to pay attention to it. If they aren't "sweating bullets" now, they need to start. 

There is no general exception for "antique railroad equipment" in the PTC rule.  The only relevant exception is that PTC doesn't have to be installed on a rail line just because of a tourist/historic/excursion rail operation on the line.  That's great for a self contained tourist railroad that operates on its own trackage, or on trackage with limited freight service, On the other hand, if PTC is required to be installed on a general system rail line because of other kinds of traffic (intercity/commuter passenger service, certain kinds of haz mat traffic, etc.), then tourist operations on the line will have to be PTC equipped by 2023 if the tourist movement is 20 or more miles in length. The bottom line is that any steam loco operators who use their locos for main line excursions are likely to be subject to the PTC rule.  Moreover, even where non-equipped steam loco excursions would be permitted on PTC lines by the FRA rule, it is entirely possible (perhaps even likely) that host railroads will refuse to permit non-equipped passenger movements on PTC lines after the PTC system is turned on. 

There is a "regulatory action summary" of the PTC rule on the HRA (ATRRM) website which gives further information on how the current version of the PTC rule will apply to excursion operations. My understanding is that some of the major steam operators are aware of this issue and are looking into what they need to do to address it.

      

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, December 22, 2017 7:47 AM

The "Panic Diesel" often tucked in behind the tender of the steam locomotive can handle the PTC business.

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Posted by Falcon48 on Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:33 PM

daveklepper

The "Panic Diesel" often tucked in behind the tender of the steam locomotive can handle the PTC business.

 

A "panic diesel" equipped for PTC might be an answer, but that remains to be seen.  I'm not a technical person, but I don't believe a train with an unequipped steam loco in the lead and a trailing, PTC equipped "panic diesel" will have full PTC functionality.  For one thing, the throttle funtion of PTC won't work.  To be sure, these may be solvable problems.  It may well be that FRA (and host railroads) can be persuaded to accept the "panic diesel" solution so long as all of the PTC braking/speed control functionality is present.  But someone has to work through these issues - the problem is not going to solve itself  

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:02 PM

Falcon48
  I'm not a technical person, but I don't believe a train with an unequipped steam loco in the lead and a trailing, PTC equipped "panic diesel" will have full PTC functionality.  For one thing, the throttle function of PTC won't work.

If it puts your mind at rest, almost all the early ATC installations mandated under the Esch Act involved stopping passenger steam engines.  We have improved some of the engineering since then.

Much of the remaining objection -- that late-SuperPower era locomotives can develop high horsepower at speed -- is mitigated by restrictions on excursion speed (easily 'enforced' with a patch to the panic diesel's systems).  The T1Trust locomotive is designed for full proportional PTC and route-control optimization: it has an air throttle, and at least two companies in the '40s made retrofittable units for 'legacy' steam power, so it is not even pre-Cold War rocket science to implement ... Note that this is for adaptive speed control, NOT penalty signal or overspeed violation, which are (as noted) much easier to implement...

 

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