THE magazine of railroading

SEARCH TRAINSMAG.COM

Enter keywords or a search phrase below:

Canadian Class

3578 views
51 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 854 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, April 16, 2017 11:08 PM

This information indicates that at least the F-2-a class with 80 inch drivers had mechanical stokers, but is unclear if the F-1-a class with 75 inch drivers was also so equipped.

http://steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Canada&wheel=4-4-4&page=cpr

Definitely agree if not equipped the fireman would indeed be shoveling like mad.

This use of the Jubilees on relatively long freights on the flatter districts is reminiscent of the Southern Pacific 2-6-0 Moguls in the Central Valley of California. They earned the nickname "Valley Malley" for their ability to pull long strings of freight on the relatively level terrain.

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 854 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Monday, April 17, 2017 10:34 PM

Canadian Pacific used its Hudsons and Pacifics (and Jubiliees) as dual purpose locomotives probably more than most other railroads...they were prodigious freight haulers as exemplified by H1b Hudson 2811 leaving Smith's Falls with what looks like about half the yard tied on to the tank...

  • Member since
    September, 2013
  • 1,395 posts
Posted by Miningman on Friday, April 28, 2017 9:58 PM

This answers a few questions.

This revealing photograph shows a CPR Jubilee 4-4-4 type with its semi-streamlining removed. 
CLC/Marine Museum of the Great Lakes at Kingston

A modern steam locomotive hauling two ancient wooden passenger cars on a branchline train.
CPR Jubilee 2928 ( #1942 3/38) backs train #637 from Hamilton into Guelph Junction, May 24, 1954.
It will wait for a meet with Montreal-Chicago #21 Chicago Express before continuing on to Goderich. 
J.F.Beveridge/Collection of F.D.Shaw

CPR 2910-2929 Cyl. 16 ½ x 28 Drv. 75" pressure 300 pounds and only 25,900 t.e. weigh only 212 ½ tons in working order and are hand-fired. This single order of 20 small, lightweight locomotives were unique to the CPR where they were used on local passenger and branchline freight trains. #1924-1943 11/37 to 3/38 

These twenty modern, semi-streamlined 4-4-4 Jubilee type engines were hand-fired due to their small size. Designed for light passenger trains and branchline freights they were unique to say the least. No other Canadian and few American railways used this wheel arrangement. 

It was the earlier 3000-3004 with 80" drivers and stokers built 8/36 by MLW that became famous for their record making high speed, 112 ½ mph. Cyl.17 ¼"x28 Drv. 80" 300# 26600 t.e. 231 tons.

  • Member since
    September, 2013
  • 1,395 posts
Posted by Miningman on Saturday, April 29, 2017 1:36 PM

So the mystery is solved ...the original locomotives #3000-3304 80" drivers had stokers. The later built order of 20 engines with 75" drivers  #2010-2929 were hand fired. 

In the above picture of #2928 at Guelph Junction, this is the locomotive preserved at Delson, Quebec and it's sibling #2929 is at Steamtown, USA. None of the beautiful and fleet of foot 80" drivered 3000-3004 were preserved. One was supposed to be saved but a "communication mixup" sent them all to scrap. We heard that one before, several times.(B&O, NYC, a Hudson no less, several others...what a load of hooey)

Regarding the picture at Guelph Junction well wouldn't it be nice to detrain from the Chicago Express for the short hop to Hamilton to the art deco TH&B station. There was a kosher deli there that made one mean corned beef sandwich I tell ya. With all the crazy quotations and philosophy of the day, framed sayings on the walls. Riding behind a Jubilee in an ancient wooden coach, and an ancient wooden baggage car just ahead of you. 

Open the window, the locomotive is right there! Coal smoke and cinders abound. Wonder if the people knew this was all heading to extinction very soon. I think they did but perhaps did not realize the extent of all of it. 

The Chicago Express was a real moneymaker for Canadian Pacific ...that train #21 Montreal-Chicago was always packed full. It was very popular.  Lots of business people and head end business. When CPR quit in the early 60's with the train there was quite an outcry. Essentially they gave the business to the CNR. 

I lived in this area in 1954. Was not worried about steam or passenger trains yet, a little bit, but definitely remember getting that "this is too good too last" feeling around 1957 and full blown realization of tragic loss in 1959. 

Would it be all that bad if it all came back tomorrow? Not at all. Not so bad.

  • Member since
    December, 2008
  • From: Toronto, Canada
  • 952 posts
Posted by 54light15 on Sunday, April 30, 2017 10:24 AM

Miningman, that picture you posted of the train along Lake Shore Boulevard is about a fifteen minute walk from where I live on Roncesvalles avenue which would be located above near the 7th coach of the train. The big building in the background is St. Joseph's Hospital and the house with the cone-shaped roof still stands. There used to be a station at the bridge that you can see in the background(which carried streetcars over the road and tracks) but all that is left of the station are concrete stairs that go nowhere.  A funny thing about the car in the picture, it looks fairly modern for the time the photo was taken which I would think was the early 1950s. I'd almost think it was a Mini, but they only were introduced in 1959. So, when was that photo taken? 

  • Member since
    September, 2013
  • 1,395 posts
Posted by Miningman on Sunday, April 30, 2017 12:14 PM

54light15- November 1959!...so it could be a mini.  Loco #2857 Train 324 Sunday only, it's Sunday morning at 9:04am. 2857 is nearing the end of it's days. 

The sleepers carried originated in New York City, Boston, Pittsburgh and Cleveland.

Here is a pic of Train 324 in June 1968, with a single FA #4095 but still carrying heavyweights!

The sleepers were heavily patronized. The sleeper service ended Oct. 1970 and was replaced by CPR RDC's, usually 2,  a RDC-4 and a RDC-2. It became daytime train only and terminated in Buffalo. 

  • Member since
    September, 2013
  • 1,395 posts
Posted by Miningman on Sunday, April 30, 2017 1:23 PM

Part II

Here we are August 1963. The New York Central, Canadian Pacific and TH&B had a % arraignment for locomotive power for the train.  Just left the TH&B station in Hamilton heading to Buffalo.

  • Member since
    September, 2013
  • 1,395 posts
Posted by Miningman on Sunday, April 30, 2017 1:45 PM

Part III

Here is what became of the well patronized and mighty overnight train to New York City with sleepers for Boston, Pittsburgh and Cleveland. 

The forces of darkness have prevailed and we have been sold a bill of goods. Witness progress in action as civilization has turned it's back on history, reasonable overnight service, convenience, heritage and there goes our trains. 

I rode this RDC very near the end of service, it was not yet a VIA train, which did not last long, out of Hamilton and back just to say I did it and ride/see the TH&B rail's to Buffalo before the already announced VIA takeover.

Buffalo's New York Central's Terminal was in serious decline and a mess. Bought a pack of Marlboro's and then back home to Burlington. 

  • Member since
    December, 2008
  • From: Toronto, Canada
  • 952 posts
Posted by 54light15 on Sunday, April 30, 2017 4:02 PM

At least the Hamilton TH & B station is still in use for passenger service. Forces of darkness indeed. 

  • Member since
    March, 2013
  • 392 posts
Posted by Dr D on Sunday, April 30, 2017 6:28 PM

54light15,

Nice to see the photo of the Hamilton TH&B station and know a bit of the old New York Central survives and is likely well cared for in Canada.

Canada and America do have a much more common heritage in railroading than most Americans realize.  Some of this is because our neighbor to the north is a very very silent one.  Canada in many respects has retained much of its British heritage - hence the queens picture on the money and crown on the automoblile license plates.

For you Americans feeilng so independent - the English often consider us one of their more independent colonies along with Canada and Australia and other lost colonies such as Egypt, India and South Africa.  In both the First and Second World War the English Army prefered Americans to fight as one of their colonial army divisions.  Which was quite a challenge for General Purshing and General Eisenhower to overcome. 

Similarly, the British have left their fine railroad heritage in Egypt with wonderful track and signal work all the way down the Nile River and also have left this in India.  I would venture to say that British railfans today would consider the American railroads as one of their rougher if not uncouth technological offspring.  And likely rightly so.

Canadian Railroads however have tended to copy the American designs in track structure and locomotive and rolling stock design - hence the Janey couplers, four wheel car trucks, passenger cars with vestibule ends, and spiked rails. 

Canada has been traveled by the famous New York Central subsidiary TH&B but America has been better traveled by the Canadians with the Central Vermont Railroad and the Grand Trunk Western.  Which brings us to the city of Detroit.

Now Detroit for much of its life one of the largest and most powerful manufacturing cities in America is for the most part situated on the northern border of the states with half its metopolitain area in Canada.  Thats right the New York Central may have jumped the border with a rail tunnel but Canada more so with rail car ferrys.  Canada ran both sides of the border with CN on one side and GT on the other - radiating out of the motor city to Chicago and north to Lansing, MI.  Canadian Pacific from Windsor where it did not cross until they purchased the tunnel, ran north along the east side of the great Lake Huron where both CN and CP ran transcontinental all the way to the Pacific.

A few other facts about Canada are that with the exception of say the Provence of Ontario and British Columbia most of the population of Canada runs just north of the American border - say 100 miles or so.  North of this populated area there is - Nothing but snow and pine trees until you get all the way to Mother Russia.

Even when you are in Detroit, MI the last civilization of any size is Flint, MI - north of that the last outpost of civilization is the city of Sault Saint Marie on the St. Mary's River which connects Lake Superior and Lake Huron.  North of these two railroads which both pass thru the Soo, there is just about nothing few auto highways and few rail lines.  Travel north of this is mostly by chartered float plane.

Yes, I grew up riding the steam trips on Canadian National 4-8-4 CN 6218 which also ran out of Detroit after crossing the river.  Also Canadian National 4-8-2 CN 6060.  Grand Trunk 4-8-4 GT 6323 sat for years in the Mound Road roundhouse and looked for all the world exactly the same and the CN "northern."  As did the famous Grand Trunk 4-6-2 GT 5632 and its sisters one of which still resides in Durand, MI.  A similar CN Pacific 4-6-2 resides along side the Detroit River today under the watchful eye of towering modern gambling casinos.  The roundhouse where I first drove a CN diesel engine - adjoining it is sadly gone. 

"Canadian Class" locomotives - hell those locomotives are as American as apple pie!  Just ask anyone who lives in New England or Michigan.

-----------

Doc 

  • Member since
    September, 2013
  • 1,395 posts
Posted by Miningman on Sunday, April 30, 2017 7:52 PM

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 854 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, May 06, 2017 5:38 AM

Canadian Class 6 - Canadian National 4-8-4 Northerns (Confederations)

The biggest fleet of 4-8-4 types in the Western Hemisphere (the Soviet Union had 251 P36 4-8-4 units - thanks for the assist, RME)...

U-2-a, U-2-b, U-2-c, U-2-d, U-2-e, U-2-f, U-2-g, U-2-h, U-4-a...

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4

Related image

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4

Related image

Related image

Related image

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4

Related image

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4 in ontario

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4 in ontario

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4 in ontario

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4 in ontario

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4 in ontario

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4 in manitoba

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4 in manitoba

Related image

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4 in manitoba

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4 in manitoba

Related image

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4 in manitoba

Related image

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4 in new brunswick

Image result for canadian national 4-8-4 in new brunswick

 

 

 

RME
  • Member since
    March, 2016
  • 1,865 posts
Posted by RME on Saturday, May 06, 2017 10:13 AM

kgbw49
The biggest fleet of 4-8-4 types on the planet...

Oh really?

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 854 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, May 06, 2017 11:17 AM

I guess the answer is "Nyet!'

I stand corrected, comrade.

It looks like the Soviet Union buried us.

Even adding in GTW units, Soviet Union still triumphs in number.

We'll restate to "the Western Hemisphere".

  • Member since
    September, 2013
  • 1,395 posts
Posted by Miningman on Saturday, May 06, 2017 12:11 PM

How about "the free world"? Either way it works.

However,..watching that video ...you need 2 4-8-4's to pull that rinky dink train? A 4-4-0 could handle that, anytime. Ya, ya, grade and all that, gimme a break. 

My 2nd to last memory of steam in regular service was on a bright sunny very cold winter day. Having walked home from school for lunch, as was the norm back then, I was sitting in the kitchen and saw a Northern pulling cars out of the Hercules plant in Burlington out onto the main line. The Beach Sub Division ended right there and connected with the Montreal-Windsor main. Hercules was the last plant ( still there) on the Beach Sub, today it is truncated to only an industrial spur to the plant. 

Anyway, I knew what the 6xxx series of locomotives were, and it put on quite a show. It kept slipping and stalling, slipping away several times, which is quite exciting to witness from a short distance. I chalked it up to the weather conditions. 

The 6400 series streamlined barrelled through town all the time on non stop through trains. Very exciting to witness. 

 

  • Member since
    October, 2005
  • 720 posts
Posted by betamax on Sunday, May 07, 2017 8:06 AM

There were a number of excellent pictures on Smugmug taken by the late Del Rosamond.  Steam in the last days of operation in Pembroke Ontario, up to the summer of 1960.  In fact, he took a picture of the last CP steam train through Pembroke.

For some reason they have disappeared from smugmug.  You can find some of them here: 

http://www.railpictures.ca/author/canadiansteam?bwbps_page_7445=1

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 854 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, May 07, 2017 8:47 AM

Great stuff, betamax! Thanks for sharing that link!

  • Member since
    September, 2010
  • From: Parma Heights Ohio
  • 1,775 posts
Posted by Penny Trains on Sunday, May 07, 2017 6:45 PM

What a great collection!

A waking Lithium Flower just about to bloom

  • Member since
    August, 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 6,671 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, May 07, 2017 6:56 PM

I've got to pay closer attention to this thread, there's some neat stuff going on here!

Sure glad the Russians stopped being Commies, they've got some good lookin' steamers, although the man was right, "Two 4-8-4's for such a dinky train?"

Maybe it was just a power move.

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 854 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, May 07, 2017 9:21 PM

Comparison of Canadian National 4-8-4 fleet U-2-a through U-2-h to Soviet State Railways 4-8-4 fleet P36:

CN 4-8-4 U-2-a though U-2-h (from Steamlocomotive.com):

Driver diameter - 73 inches

Boiler pressure - 250 psi

Grate area - 84.4 square feet

Tractive effort - 56,786 lbs

Soviet State Railways 4-8-4 P36 (from Steamlocomotive.com):

Driver diameter - 72.8 inches

Boiler pressure - 213.2 psi

Grate area - 72.66 square feet

Tractive effort - 40,192 lbs

  • Member since
    December, 2008
  • From: Toronto, Canada
  • 952 posts
Posted by 54light15 on Monday, May 08, 2017 9:03 AM

In the picture from Toronto in 1956, the grain elevators are still there. Not in use but there they are at the foot of Bathurst Street. 

  • Member since
    February, 2005
  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 20,716 posts
Posted by selector on Monday, May 08, 2017 9:56 AM

The large water tank you see in the Pembroke photos is still standing, albeit with a nice mural surrounding it on the sidewall.

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Trains free email newsletter
NEWS » PHOTOS » VIDEOS » HOT TOPICS & MORE
GET OUR WEEKLY NEWSLETTER DELIVERED TO YOUR INBOX
Connect with us
ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER

Search the Community