A very good question was asked, and certainly it is not too early to ask it!
BuslistNo that wasn't my original question. The question was what if anything are the excursion operators doing to comply with the PTC mandate?
Yes. And that's my interest in this question as well. Have you asked it over on RyPN (example thread here) or looked over the ATTRM conference proceedings to see what they (and their members) are thinking about or planning? I think those would be better sources than this forum.
I think that if you have a PTC-equipped diesel as protect power, most of the required functionality for PTC compliance (the data exchange, for example, and brake actuation) are covered, and at a minimum you could achieve what the historic ATC systems that didn't control throttle or reverser could. (Before anyone starts with the idea of an electrical guillotine or butterfly valve in the main steam line, that's a relatively poor idea unless forced on you.) [The argument back in the early '20s was that the resistance of a whole train in penalty braking would cause the locomotive to stall or in some cases slip, with little additional distance required for the stop once the brakes had set up.]
The argument for vintage diesels, as far as I can see, is that some minimum equipment suite (SDRs, communications links, some actuators, etc.) will need to be provided on at least one unit or in an appropriately-MU/DPU-connected vehicle. Very little of the equipment required cannot be made portable or 'pluggable' in the field, albeit at extra cost, which raises the idea that some sets of standardized equipment could be developed for rental or lease, and shared between the various excursion groups as needed - this would also standardize any necessary documentation of maintenance, calibration, interfacing, etc.
My mistake, sorry.
At any rate, both the RF&P and Pennsylvania Raliroads managed to install ATS, or Automatic Train Stop in their steam engines back in the old days, there's always the possibility the PTC system could be installed as well.
Firelock76 I seem to recall the original question was will a PTC requirement will effectively kill steam excursions.
I seem to recall the original question was will a PTC requirement will effectively kill steam excursions.
No that wasn't my original question. The question was what if anything are the excursion operators doing to comply with the PTC mandate?
Paul of Covington Many steam excursions have one or more diesel engines in the consist. Could the PTC capability in the diesel be used effectively to control the train? I don't know the details on what PTC is capable of, but could it be useful in some of its functions such as applying brakes for instance? If nothing else, have a crew member in the diesel's cab who can communicate with the steam crew. I know I would rather see pure steam in these trains, but...
Many steam excursions have one or more diesel engines in the consist. Could the PTC capability in the diesel be used effectively to control the train? I don't know the details on what PTC is capable of, but could it be useful in some of its functions such as applying brakes for instance? If nothing else, have a crew member in the diesel's cab who can communicate with the steam crew. I know I would rather see pure steam in these trains, but...
That might work but we'll to to see FRA's position on this approach.
CAZEPHYR Much like the hotbox, dragging equipment detectors and ditch lights, steam excursion will not be using PTC. PTC will probably prevent many accidents in the future by overriding the engineer inputs, but if the train can be run by PTC, why have a crew??? Larry
Much like the hotbox, dragging equipment detectors and ditch lights, steam excursion will not be using PTC.
PTC will probably prevent many accidents in the future by overriding the engineer inputs, but if the train can be run by PTC, why have a crew???
Larry
But currently the PTC LAW (not regulation ) requires them to.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
After all this the answer is, nobody knows.
You know what? I don't think it will. I can't give you a "nuts and bolts" reason why. It's an act of faith. Sometimes you just gotta believe. The moon sets, the sun rises, the earth turns, and steam will never die.
CAZEPHYR Buslist Does anyone have any insight into the plans of the various steam excursion (and vintage diesel for that matter) operators relative to the PTC mandate? Much like the hotbox, dragging equipment detectors and ditch lights, steam excursion will not be using PTC. PTC if it works extremely well could effectively eliminate crews on diesel or electric powered trains some day. Why have a crew if they fail to stay awake and run the train. Several accidents in the past few years have been due to crew fatigue according to accident reports. It might not happen for many years but that is the way railroads would like to run the future. PTC will probably prevent many accidents in the future by overriding the engineer inputs, but if the train can be run by PTC, why have a crew??? Larry
Buslist Does anyone have any insight into the plans of the various steam excursion (and vintage diesel for that matter) operators relative to the PTC mandate?
Does anyone have any insight into the plans of the various steam excursion (and vintage diesel for that matter) operators relative to the PTC mandate?
Much like the hotbox, dragging equipment detectors and ditch lights, steam excursion will not be using PTC. PTC if it works extremely well could effectively eliminate crews on diesel or electric powered trains some day. Why have a crew if they fail to stay awake and run the train. Several accidents in the past few years have been due to crew fatigue according to accident reports. It might not happen for many years but that is the way railroads would like to run the future.
PTC does not run the train. It will stop it if the train's operation does not conform to certain parameters. Except when operating in situations under restricted speed. Some accidents have happened (Red Oak/Emerson, Iowa) where PTC wouldn't have prevented them.
The current energy management systems that have auto-throttle/dynamic brake operation also can't totally run the train. Maybe sometime in the future, both systems will be combined and then they will run the train completely.
Jeff
And by the same token PTC will cause some accidents that would not have happened otherwise. I don't know which ones will happen, I just know that they will.
Making something 'idiot proof' just means that higher level idiots will defeat it as time goes on. It is the truth of human existance. Accident prevention is the real world game of 'Wack a Mole', every time you think you a 'wacked' them all, another that wasn't accounted for pops up.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
No PTC on a steam train, what could go wrong? It could overspeed on a curve, it could hit a track worker, it could hit a passenger train, it could hit a hazmet train.
CAZEPHYRPTC will probably prevent many accidents in the future by overriding the engineer inputs, but if the train can be run by PTC, why have a crew???
Because there's always that one idiot who thinks he can do whatever he wants who will trespass on a bridge or disregard crossing gates that an operator a thousand miles away couldn't see.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Firelock76As far as I know it's of no concern, steam engines are "grandfathered" and exempt from various regulations that concern modern locomotives,
But let's be honest -- you're talking about putting 500-odd tons of locomotive and a bunch of cars full of people out there where there are other trains on the same tracks? And you wouldn't have PTC active? ... I'd make a case for all four functionalities being valuable.
The insurance cost (perhaps even availability!) alone would cover the likely cost of providing equipment to make the locomotives compliant. Assuming frozen design and a full production run of the equipment, I suspect it won't be difficult to produce something that interacts with the PTC system even if it's just transponder-based knowledge of where the 'steam train' is to avoid it...
(The design for 5550 was set from day one to be fully PTC-compliant, not just minimal compatibility. Most of the equipment is fully portable, and just 'plugs in' to the "historic technology", but it will be there. And allow 5550 to run with full safety and authority anywhere it needs to.)
Well I could be wrong, I freely admit it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Firelock76 As far as I know it's of no concern, steam engines are "grandfathered" and exempt from various regulations that concern modern locomotives, EPA emission rules for example. Vintage diesels I'm not sure about, but I'd imagine if they're classified as antiques (if such a thing is done) they'd be exempt as well.
As far as I know it's of no concern, steam engines are "grandfathered" and exempt from various regulations that concern modern locomotives, EPA emission rules for example. Vintage diesels I'm not sure about, but I'd imagine if they're classified as antiques (if such a thing is done) they'd be exempt as well.
Emissions are a lot different than operating safety, reading through the PTC regulation and participating in the rule making I don't recall any exemption.
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