I am headed West on Route 66 by RV in a few days. I want to ride either the Cumbres & Toltec or Durango & Silverton. Which should I enjoy if I decide to ride only 1 of the 2?
retiredchief I am headed West on Route 66 by RV in a few days. I want to ride either the Cumbres & Toltec or Durango & Silverton. Which should I enjoy if I decide to ride only 1 of the 2?
ride both. The C&t ride out of Chama will give you the best sound and power display. 14 miles of 4% grade. Very true about the C&T being accessable to the railfan. why choose.
Both railroads are great steam rides. I have only taken the D&S, but the C&T is on my bucket list. My impression is that the C&T is a more authentic representation of narrow gauge railroading 100+ years ago with both freight and passenger equipment being represented. The D&S is certainly very scenic and the equipment will please most railfans.
For me, the c&t hands down. The scenery is good, it is more authentic, more commercial. On the c&t, its more rail fan freindly. You can get up and close for pictures and spend hours walking their yards. Their trains are pretty easy to chase and get good pictures.
Retiredchief,
Actually the two railroads, C&T and the D&S are very different -
Cumbries & Toltec - The only thing that is original to this railroad regarding the terminals is the high mountain town of Chama, NM which is basically unchanged since the days of Wyatt Earp. The famous lawman rode the narrow gauge trains and ran a gaming parlor in Gunnison, CO after the Tomebstone, AZ episode in his life.
Chama, NM has the original Rio Grande engine house, coaling tower, and water tank as well as station and freight house. This is the operational center of the C&T and there are many remaining original freight cars stored in the extensive rail yard, and much of this original freight equipment is being restored. C&T did not, however, inherit the original passenger cars of the Rio Grande so the equipment they use is either newly constructed or from South American narrow gauge - hand me down equipment made to look authentic. The steam locomotives though are very original RG 480 series 2-8-2 engines built for the Rio Grande in 1928.
The C&T really works these locomotives on the all day runs and the 4% eastward climb out of Chama, NM to Cumbries Pass, CO. I have never seen a railroad climb to that height, which has to be one of the most dramatic rail journies left in America.
I like the C&T for a couple of other really outstanding reasons - first it travels miles and miles of original main line untouched by time. Many water tanks, passing sidings and a long, long way in the mountian wilderness and across trackless sections of the high desert scrub plains.
In fact the train trip is so long, that the C&T breaks it into two journeys. You can - ride east half way and take the bus back to Chama, NM for a day's excursion. Or you can ride west from Antonito, CO to the same half way point and take the bus back to your car in Antonito. Or you can commit to the whole trip and return the next day - traveling either east or west. The Antonito, CO engine and yard are entirely new because the Rio Grande RR destroyed the original rail yard, station and engine facility.
The Antonito, CO and the Alamosa, CO area, which were the last remaining three rail track of "narrow" and "standard gauge" has been removed. Once a cattle ranch and railroad town location, Alamosa CO has been taken over by a Mexican imigrant population and the ranching and old western community are now entirely gone. The cattle range is now divided into house trailer lots for miles and miles. Here and there old narrow gauge boxcars are scattered - for miles and miles - as homes and sheds.
One really interesting use of the old Rio Grande RR yard in Alamosa, CO is that it is now the home to much of the remaining standard gauge rail passenger equipment left in America. Central Rail Car - Iowa Pacific Holdings has taken control of the old Rio Grande yard and stored many old 1950's streamliner passenger cars - dining cars - pullman cars - and vista dome cars. All may be refurbished for modern use or sold by the Chicago, IL based Iowa Pacific RR.
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One cool thing about both the D&S and the C&T are the many famous "Western" movies that were filmed along the main lines and in both Durango, CO and Chama, NM in the 1950's thru the 1970's - you will be walking the ground of famous movie stars like John Wayne - and will recognize the film locations entirely.
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Durango & Silverton - This was always the historic 45 mile "tourist" one day - "there and back" - rail journey of the Denver and Rio Grande Western RR when it was a working railroad. The terminals and stations are all basically original, because they were kept so from the outset as historic rail sites. The D&S trips follow the famous Animas River Valley northward to the historic mining district of Silverton, CO. The rail line runs the side of the mountains in several locations, and across the flood plains and meadows of the river valley on both sides as it travels into mountains of increasingly rugged country.
This rail line is paralleled by the famous US Public Highway 550 which travels to Red Mountain Pass - also known as "Americas most dangerous highway."
Second - the steam locomotives are the old RG 470 series of 2-8-2 which were often used as passenger steam power on the original Rio Grande RR. D&S does own several of the remaining RG 480 series 2-8-2's heavier engines, but I am not sure how much service they get. The passenger cars on the D&S are also the original Rio Grande equipment dating back to the 1890's. All of these are suitably modernized and kept up, except for a few new tourist cars that have been added to de-authenticate the train and provide viewing and drinking service.
The city of Durango, Co itself is the original famous "shoot em up" wild west town - famous for its murders and law enforcement with its own record of a historic public hanging - done within sight of the rail station.
Durango today is seeing a high degree of urban development so the old wild west flavor of the town is fast disapearing. A new generation of Americans and Mexicans are quickly changing things and a freeway through the center of town has given it a bit of the "feel of California" it now has. The station itself and the rail yards and engine facility, which used to be "open anyone" are now all fenced off and are highly restricted to the wandering public. The nearby "downtown" Durango area around the station is all highly authentic to the 1890's.
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Fun trip and a cool location, I hope this helps!
Have a great trip,
Doc
But from what I remember, Silverton still has an authentic old-West Silver economy feel to it, with no Californiazation, a good restaurant or two for time between arrival and departure, or have things changed?
If you do visit the C&T, by all means ride the whole line if possible.
Dr. D, C&TS had to build their own Antonito facilities to the SW of Rio Grande's yard, to keep the lines separate. The old D&RGW Antonito station is still there on Google Earth.
According to the C&TS website, the one day trip options are to take the train over the entire route one-way and the bus the other way, or take the train to the mid-point where you meet the other train returning you to your origin.
http://cumbrestoltec.com/room/full-day-trips/
Mike,
Your right and I stand corrected on the timetable. When I was in Denver last summer and waiting to take the trip to Chama, NM with my attorney son, I got on google maps and followed the Antonito, CO to Chama, NM on my computer.
This is a real neat experience because you can dial in the satalite photos and check out every inch of the main line. I just never realized that the railroad runs south of Antonito right into New Mexico! It wanders around the sage prairie there for quite a while passing several "wye" junctions gradually gaining altitude before returning north to Colorado. You can see the water tanks, coaling towers, passing sidings, bridges, trestles, historic way stations and NO ROADS!
You can see the old "wye" where the Chili Line ran on to Santa Fe, NM. You can also see where helper locomotives could turn around and where freight and passenger trains could pass on various sidings. Crew quarters, shipping points for cattle and freight all across a wide backwoods of rural America.
If you can do long distance old fashioned narrow gauge rail travel in the spirit of the 1890's transportation mode this is a GRAND trip across the wilds of America! I find it extremely novel that such a steam passenger railroad yet runs in America.
When I was in Antonito I spent time talking to the C&T staff in the office. I was surprised that many of these office people have several generations of family history with Rio Grande RR in their past.
We talked about the destruction of the Rio Grande RR main lines and terminals. Apparently the Federal Government gave a grant of money to allow C&T to rebuild the Lobato Trestle just outside of Chama. Discussion also was about the C&T eventually planning to use the historic train station in Antonito as its passenger house. We also talked about the rail going back in between Chama and Durango one mile at a time.
Some of this I am sure was a pipe dream but considering what is going on with the Virgina & Truckee it is entirely possible for the Colorado and New Mexico state governments to oversee such an activity.
Later I did drive the distance from Chama, NM to Durango, CO - that is a serious distance to travel and track!
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Nice to see all the local enthusiasm for the most famous of American narrow gauge - arn't you glad we still got it? I sure am!
Because of the construction of a dam around 1961, a relocation was necessary, and part of the Chama - Durango line was actually built in 1961!
It is 109 miles from Chama to Durango via Highways 84 and 160 per Mapquest.
Dr.D, 25 years ago I drove east from Durango trying to follow the narrow gauge grade on back roads until I got to the Navaho Resevoir. Recently they have imporved the old grade on that area to a scenic byway, I think as far east as Dulce. Did you take the new byway when you went between Chama and Durango?
As I recall the old track was in use both in 1960 and 1961, and our special train used the new track with the reservoir completed in 1962, both ways.
Riding those coaches 14 or 15 hours between Almosa and Durango really gave a taste of what long-distance train travel was like in the 1800s.
Apparently the track had deteriorated since San Juan days. D&RGW 1949 timetable shows 9 hours Alamosa-Durango, and the bus did it in 5 hours.
MidlandMike Apparently the track had deteriorated since San Juan days. D&RGW 1949 timetable shows 9 hours Alamosa-Durango, and the bus did it in 5 hours.
Even the 1949 schedule goes on a long way in explaining why D&RGW abandoned the narrow gauge. Freight service was equally slow compared to trucks, including Rio Grande's own trucking subsidiary.
I think we really have to move beyond seeing the surviving Denver & Rio Grande narrow gauge steam railroad as a competitive practical form of freight transportation in the 21st century.
What is remarkable about it, and what should come to everyone's attention is that it is a TRUELY HISTORIC steam RAILROAD that has survived into the present age to serve a unique and new curiosity as a PUBLIC INTEREST.
NOTE the restoration of the Virgina & Truckee Railroad by the State of Nevada as a historic tourist attraction. This is remarkable. To the point of doing archeological digs, and academic papers on the findings of long abandon railroad passenger sites! Give me a break!
That the State of Nevada would go to the trouble of finding the original track allignments, rebuilding the tunnels, and reproducing an existing historic steam locomotive just so they would have a new operating copy of an original? That Democratic Senator Harry Reid would get the US Congress to give financial support too!
I would think Cumbries & Toltec and Durango Silverton should have at least as bright a future. Pertinant also is the caution that the state has a vested interest in the functioning of their companies. That, that which was the Gettysburg Railroad will not function for a future model.
Furthermore, I don't think it really matters that modern truck transportation is more efficient - more efficient than what? - in moving the heart? - that a complete surviving historic 1890's steam railroad today constitutes more than an economic interest?
Passengers don't book every seat on every train of Durango & Silverton weeks in advance! - that passengers don't ride Cumbries & Toltec as a fast viable alternative to the automobile? They will, however, pay exorbitant amounts of money to sit in a parlor car while getting drunk listening to the formost American steam whistle hale its traditional crossings, while watching the back woods mountain vistas pass before them on a 6 hour trip across the majesty of America's greatest wilderness.
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Further, that some rural on line freight shippers might consider the railroad economicly useful just to avoid the costs and upkeep of creating their own backwoods dirt roads across countless miles of mountain elevations of America - regardless of marginal old school railroad freight shipping costs - and that the State of Colorado would close down many such public roads as just not passable in the winter months!
I believe in it - yes I really do - Just my opinion,
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