Trains.com

Next New Build In The UK

33835 views
177 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 15,997 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, March 6, 2021 1:15 PM

Sara T
So in your language, a 2-10-0 is 100 g of tea or coffee from the pot?

In our language, 100g is a hectogram, and a pod (with broad if not tasty reference to coffee) means a Keurig pod or the Nestle wasteful equivalent whatever they call it.  (And I thought for years Keurig was a European company! marketing savvy strikes again!)

I am not sure how 'deca' comes to be used properly in this context.  I confess to being a diehard cgs adherent (which is one reason I grouse about hobgoblin-of-small-minds SI having locomotive blueprints scaled in mm dimensions) but I have never heard of 10-gram units (which, amusingly, would be called decagrams if not deprecated). Presumably there is some coffee sellers' unit of measurement and I'd love to know what it is.

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2021
  • From: Germany
  • 122 posts
Posted by Sara T on Saturday, March 6, 2021 1:32 PM

deleted by Sara

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 15,997 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:20 PM

Sara T
Juni had earlier told me that a proper Mikado has the third coupled axle driven by the main rods because it comes just right.

She is right, and this would apply to most Berkshires (2-8-4s) as well.  In part this is because no additional space is needed between the cylinder saddle and leading driver pair (to accommodate the rear pair of wheels in an Adams lead truck) and a rod to the second pair of comparatively small coupled wheels would be too short to work correctly.  On a 4-8-4 of comparable size the rod would probably go to the second pair, and this generally 'comes just right' for that arrangement.
This British 2-8-2 shiny greenery then is not a proper Mikado.
It really is not, but more for the reason that it's no more a typical "Mikado" than one of Chapelon's rebuilt 4-8-0s is a "Mastodon".  These are passenger engines intended to work heavier trains, with taller drivers.  So you see the outside rods made light enough even with the outside cylinders immediately ahead of the lead driver pair.

What you mean by "angularity and overbalance"? It changes while the wheels go round, no?

The rod 'angle' is what changes as the wheels go around ; 'angularity' is a measure of how far the big end moves laterally on its 'crank' compared to the rod's length, and there are 'best proportions' for it in different types of engine.  You are welcome to PM for more detail if you want.

  • Member since
    July 2008
  • 754 posts
Posted by Juniatha on Saturday, March 6, 2021 5:32 PM

removed by request

Juniatha

 

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 15,997 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, March 6, 2021 8:30 PM

.

Removed by request.

  • Member since
    July 2008
  • 754 posts
Posted by Juniatha on Saturday, March 6, 2021 8:47 PM

Overmod

Thank you! PM: no, we phone each other whenever we feel like it - I also used to jet over the Atlantic before this new 'Ice Age' but now you can't and if this goes on much longer we all can't anymore because airplanes will not be servicable anymore and we will be back to the times of the Titanic ...

Well, maybe I was overacting, my writing was to everyone, I wanted to protect, maybe it was not perfect, maybe I shouldn't have written what I had - sorry in this case. You know me.

Ok, everything is fine now!

Vaya con Dios

Juniatha

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 6,402 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, March 6, 2021 9:53 PM

Juniatha
because airplanes will not be servicable anymore and we will be back to the times of the Titanic ...

Wouldn't bother me, as long as they:

1)  Keep a good lookout, and post extras on moonless nights.

2)  Pay attention to and handle ice warnings properly.

3)  Have an officer on the bridge who understands  the ship he's driving.

4)  Shift the course further south when ice warnings come through.

5)  Slow it down a bit too!

Do all the above and you won't need those lifeboats that aren't there but should be anyway.

I think Sara and I might be kindred spirits in a way.  I may not understand the engineering of steam design, but I sure understand the poetry in motion!  

  • Member since
    February 2021
  • From: Germany
  • 122 posts
Posted by Sara T on Sunday, March 7, 2021 8:00 AM

deleted by Sara

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 6,402 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, March 7, 2021 8:15 AM

Sara T
But there is a chance gradually the present mess will be overcome.

Of course!  Tough times don't last, but tough people do!  Wink

  • Member since
    February 2021
  • From: Germany
  • 122 posts
Posted by Sara T on Sunday, March 7, 2021 8:53 AM

deleted by Sara

  • Member since
    October 2020
  • 1,071 posts
Posted by NorthBrit on Thursday, March 25, 2021 3:34 PM

The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust Have plans to build the following.

Gresley P2  2.8.2  number 2007   Prince of Wales

Gresley V4  2.6.2  number 3403

Gresley V3  2.6.2 Tank Engine

 LNWR George the Fifth Steam Locomotive Trust,  is building  a George the Fifth Class locomotive  to be named    Prince George  number  2013   (the year Prince George  was born.)

 

More locomotives are being/to be built.

 

David

 

 

To the world you are someone.    To someone you are the world

I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Toronto, Canada
  • 2,134 posts
Posted by 54light15 on Thursday, March 25, 2021 4:10 PM

Isn't there another Gresley P2 being built by another group, called Cock of the North? 

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Toronto, Canada
  • 2,134 posts
Posted by 54light15 on Thursday, March 25, 2021 4:10 PM

deleted- duplicate post 

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • 4,246 posts
Posted by M636C on Thursday, March 25, 2021 9:34 PM

Yes.

They have a facebook page and appear to have a set of frames assembled...

(4) Doncaster P2 Locomotive Trust - Cock O'The North | Facebook

Peter

  • Member since
    February 2021
  • From: Germany
  • 122 posts
Posted by Sara T on Saturday, March 27, 2021 3:14 PM

 

 

  • Member since
    October 2020
  • 1,071 posts
Posted by NorthBrit on Sunday, March 28, 2021 5:14 AM

Sara T

 

.. and they all look like simple 1930s tin model trains to me, they shine in polished green but look kind of non-real locomotives. They were outmoded when they first were built and they are more outmoded now. A garden railway in size 1:1.

Sara 05003

 

 

I bet you do not say that to my four year old granddaughter.  Big Smile

She is a real 1:1  1930s  'tin model'  locomotive fan.

 

David

To the world you are someone.    To someone you are the world

I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • 4,246 posts
Posted by M636C on Sunday, March 28, 2021 6:46 AM

Sara T

>>More locomotives are being/to be built.<<

.. and they all look like simple 1930s tin model trains to me, they shine in polished green but look kind of non-real locomotives. They were outmoded when they first were built and they are more outmoded now. A garden railway in size 1:1.

Sara 05003

 

 

The only company that built models of the P2s at the time was Maerklin.

These were the most expensive models made by that company at the time, so presumably there were adequate sales in Germany of these models which were regarded as the most modern locomotives of the time. Other models included the French Etat 241-101, later rebuilt by Chapelon as 242 A1 and of course the DR 01.

Perhaps they look like tinplate models because there were tinplate models made in Germany that looked like them...

Peter

  • Member since
    February 2021
  • From: Germany
  • 122 posts
Posted by Sara T on Sunday, March 28, 2021 3:58 PM

M636C:

Sorry you got me all wrong.

I didn't write about the models or their relative quality. I wrote about the way the British railway locomotives of the early 1920s - 1930s look like, many with inside cylinders and all with boilers without any pipes and rods and valves. Nothing on the boiler, behind it a scarce hut as a cabin and on the wheels only side rods, a front end devoid most of what makes a real locomotive front end. A tender with six wheels fixed in the frame. This doesn't look like a locomotive to me but like a simple play model of a locomotive. Even if in 1:1 scale.

Do you get what I mean?

Sara 05003

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 15,997 posts
Posted by Overmod on Sunday, March 28, 2021 7:21 PM

I'm trying now to remember who was reportedly looking carefully at the original model of Bulleid's 'austerity' Q1 0-6-0, and when asked said he was trying to see where the key would go...

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • 4,246 posts
Posted by M636C on Sunday, March 28, 2021 9:15 PM

Sara T

M636C:

Sorry you got me all wrong.

I didn't write about the models or their relative quality. I wrote about the way the British railway locomotives of the early 1920s - 1930s look like, many with inside cylinders and all with boilers without any pipes and rods and valves. Nothing on the boiler, behind it a scarce hut as a cabin and on the wheels only side rods, a front end devoid most of what makes a real locomotive front end. A tender with six wheels fixed in the frame. This doesn't look like a locomotive to me but like a simple play model of a locomotive. Even if in 1:1 scale.

Do you get what I mean?

Sara 05003

 

 

But the P2 looks a lot like, say, DR 05 003 as far as the lack of external fittings, except of course that 05 003 ran backwards...

Even 05 001 and 05 002 looked much the same.

But models of all of those were very popular in Germany before 1939.

Peter

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 15,997 posts
Posted by Overmod on Monday, March 29, 2021 10:09 AM

M636C
But the P2 looks a lot like, say, DR 05 003 as far as the lack of external fittings, except of course that 05 003 ran backwards...

There is a difference, though, between full technical streamlining, as on the DR 05s as built and to a lesser extent locomotives like NYC's Kantola-streamlined 4-6-4 and later its K5s for the Mercury service, and the British penchant to conceal 'scarecrow-looking' running-gear, piping, cylinders and so forth to give the, well, prettiest impression.  We had people on this side of the pond that embraced the design ethic, notably Leonor Loree, who made 'that look' somewhat infamous on a couple of railroads.

It is difficult for me to look at something like a Great Central Director, for example, and not think of a toy, regardless of how well the engine might have performed as a locomotive.  That isn't the case at all for Churchward's and then Collett's four-cylinder 4-6-0s, even though some of the motionwork and much of the piping is likewise concealed and elegant simplicity is a design element.

Streamlined locomotives shouldn't be expected to have exposed piping or motionwork -- this was carefully discussed in the early Thirties and the roller-door access on the 05s and other classes as built is one example.  In this country we made 'seeing the drivers' more a design element (to the point of spotlighting them!) and of course got the tinsbips out early and often as 'aerodynamic streamlining' was seldom of actual critical importance (vs. whiz-bang perceived style) when money was being lost somewhere...

  • Member since
    February 2021
  • From: Germany
  • 122 posts
Posted by Sara T on Tuesday, March 30, 2021 10:21 PM

M636C: >>But the P2 looks a lot like, say, DR 05 003 as far as the lack of external fittings, except of course that 05 003 ran backwards...<<

Hahahahahaha peeeewww! That is the best joke I've read recently.

One is a 2-8-2 and the other is a 4-6-4, one has often used 1.88 m drivers, the other has unique 2.30 m drivers, one has large smoke wings, the other has these part things in disguise, one has a simple eight wheel tender all wheels fixed in frame, no bogie, the other has a 4-6-0 tender with a proper bogie, one has a .. oh, come on, all steam locos look the same, that's the basic lesson of this.

Ok, if that's so, then of course you have no choice. I'm sorry, I have to apologize!

 

Overmod,

>>I'm trying now to remember who was reportedly looking carefully at the original model of Bulleid's 'austerity' Q1 0-6-0, and when asked said he was trying to see where the key would go...<<

I believe it was Stanier, Sir William Stanier FRS, of the quite notable and elegant LMS Duchess Pacifics (also 'avoiding' a proper bogie tender, but still an express loco type)

I am representing the regular 05003 1945 - '47 and 1950 - '58, in classic mode, I have explained that several times, you understand that, thank you. 

Sara 05003

 

                   

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • 4,246 posts
Posted by M636C on Monday, April 5, 2021 9:41 AM

I challenge anyone looking at 05 003 as built to tell me what its wheel arrangement is, purely from its outside appearance.... let alone its wheel diameter.

However, Cock O' The North was recognisably a steam locomotive...

France: 'Cock O' The North', Britain's Most Powerful Locomotive, Makes Stationary Test In France. - British Pathé (britishpathe.com)

And this includes an interview with Oliver Bullied...

It ran so smoothly on the Vitry test stand that the bearings ran hot, something that never happened on the road. Apparently they needed vibration to ensure the oil film stayed in place.

But it looks like a real locomotive to me.

Peter

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • 4,246 posts
Posted by M636C on Friday, April 9, 2021 6:00 AM

I am advised that the Churchward "County" 4-4-0 has a complete set of frames assembled, although wheels and cylinders are still to come.

The much later Hawkesworth "County" 4-6-0 is more advanced and is awaiting a boiler being rebuilt from a Stanier 8F boiler.

Peter

  • Member since
    October 2020
  • 1,071 posts
Posted by NorthBrit on Monday, April 12, 2021 5:08 PM

M636C

I am advised that the Churchward "County" 4-4-0 has a complete set of frames assembled, although wheels and cylinders are still to come.

The much later Hawkesworth "County" 4-6-0 is more advanced and is awaiting a boiler being rebuilt from a Stanier 8F boiler.

Peter

 

 

It's number will be 3840 and named County of Montgomery.

 

David

To the world you are someone.    To someone you are the world

I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought

  • Member since
    February 2021
  • From: Germany
  • 122 posts
Posted by Sara T on Monday, April 19, 2021 2:04 AM

m636c:

Even though you have such a hard time to swallow the pill I will try to make it easier and very simple for you:

Me not 05001 not 05002. Me 05003! And me not 1937 test model, me only * 1945 and run until 1947, see previous photo, then me 05003 after refurbishing at Maffei 1950 and on till 1958.

All that: no streamline, me conventional classic loco although a little bigger than your British, ehem, 3,8m size toys, me 4,55m tall, 27m long, sorry.

I know, I know, it's hard. Well, read again and again until it sinks into you, this is one of my last postings anyways, so take a deep breath, I hope for the best.

S .. no, I will not make it more complicated.

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • 4,246 posts
Posted by M636C on Monday, April 19, 2021 5:07 AM

Sara T

m636c:

Even though you have such a hard time to swallow the pill I will try to make it easier and very simple for you:

Me not 05001 not 05002. Me 05003! And me not 1937 test model, me only * 1945 and run until 1947, see previous photo, then me 05003 after refurbishing at Maffei 1950 and on till 1958.

All that: no streamline, me conventional classic loco although a little bigger than your British, ehem, 3,8m size toys, me 4,55m tall, 27m long, sorry.

I know, I know, it's hard. Well, read again and again until it sinks into you, this is one of my last postings anyways, so take a deep breath, I hope for the best.

S .. no, I will not make it more complicated.

 

All I said was that AS BUILT 05 003 looked less like a steam locomotive than did LNER 2001 as built. I don't disagree with anything you have said above but it doesn't alter or invalidate anything I have said.

For anyone who doesn't follow this posting, full details are here:

A German Streamlined Cabforward. (douglas-self.com)

This is relevant to the thread on deep and shallow fireboxes, since alone among passenger locomotives of the era in Germany, it had a combustion chamber which allowed it to operate more economically when rebuilt to burn coal shortly before the end of WWII.

Incidentally, the streamlining of LNER 2001 was based on No 10000

The LNER 10000. (douglas-self.com)

That is all.

Peter

  • Member since
    February 2021
  • From: Germany
  • 122 posts
Posted by Sara T on Monday, April 19, 2021 8:09 AM

Mc636

>>Incidentally, the streamlining of LNER 2001 was based on No 10000<<

Aaaaaaahhhhh! wooooow! Is THAT so??? I can't get it 

No 10000! this loco was not just #10000, no it was "No-10000!"

What an ingenious trick: they didn't like five digit loco numbers and so they christened this loco: number "No-10000!". If more would have been built, no, that was off limits because of this five digit number, but iiff, there would have been a No-10001, No-10002 and so on.

That's so British! Admiralty! (sorry admirable)

>>All I said was that AS BUILT 05 003 looked less like a steam locomotive than did LNER 2001 as built << and even DURING building! Who could have said this would ever become a steam locomotive. The workers had to be specially selected and sent to a trainings camp before building it! Only because the London-and-No-Eastern-Ranch in 2001 had finally managed to look like a locomotive, but a diesel locomotive then, an odyssee in space!

Oh, British loco naming is a field for itself that dizzy continental Europeans will never understand. However I have heard that today the British don't understand their quasi US-privatised railway system neither anymore and that's why they prefer to go by car.

>>anyone who doesn't follow this posting,<< Ahh, but what do you think? We all fully focussed for following your beloved postings from first to last key! Never kiss, sorry, miss a word.

Although, lately I haven't read a word of it, I have to admit.

>>That's all<<  Oh, now I'm sad!

Nooh-five-ohh-ohh-three

 

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy