Next New Build In The UK

8641 views
51 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
NDG
  • Member since
    December, 2013
  • 587 posts
Posted by NDG on Wednesday, August 10, 2016 11:31 PM

 

At least reconstructing a long-scrapped LNER 2-8-2 makes some sense, given it's manageable size.

The non-streamlined versions, regardless of Valve Gear look great.

https://newbuildsteam.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/2007-by-jonathan-clay-p2slc.jpg

http://www.nrm.org.uk/img/nrm/worksphotos/Doncaster/1997-7396_DON_34_122.jpg

And, people care.

However, on THIS side of the Pond, with all the Plinthed Steam, Diesel and Electric locomotives gently aging ( Rotting? ) in parks, trees and elsewhere, does it make sense to recreate ANOTHER Locomotive?? if no one might care in several years? Or even NOW?

Even those locomotives 'Safely?' undercover at this writing may well be in danger as climates of interest change? and the price of real estate climbs.

BLW 60000 comes to mind, and there are others.

Rezoning and Taxes and loss of interest can demolish the strongest structures.

It is easy to dream, with other people's money.

My Two 2 Pence Worth.

Drink the Fn whine, and move on!

What next? A faithful rendition of ' RMS Titanic ' with Binoculars for all??

Thank You.

  • Member since
    March, 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 10,132 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, August 11, 2016 8:08 AM

NDG has some valid points.  Somehow, I have the feeling that in about ten years or so, the T1 Trust will have a collection of various parts (not a complete set), no way to assemble them and no more money to do so anyway due to a decline of interest in the project.

If they were going to build a steam locomotive from scratch, they should have considered something a little smaller like a C&NW E class 4-6-2.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 920 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Thursday, August 11, 2016 7:37 PM

You could sell me on that one...

Or for a little extra oomph for the occasional excursion train with an extra coach or two, that rarest of breeds...

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 920 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Thursday, August 24, 2017 10:59 PM

Quite a bit of progress on the P2 3-cylinder 2-8-2 2007 Prince of Wales - purportedly 20% complete per the embedded BBC video:

https://www.p2steam.com/

The other 2-8-2 build 2001 Cock O' The North does not seem to be as far along as Prince of Wales but they have a nice merchandise selection with proceeds going to construction of 2001.

http://www.cockothenorth.co.uk

 

 

 

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 920 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, October 08, 2017 3:23 PM

Tornado looking really good - Prince of Wales will be equally amazing:

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/633418/

 

  • Member since
    September, 2003
  • 3,915 posts
Posted by Overmod on Sunday, October 08, 2017 8:15 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
Somehow, I have the feeling that in about ten years or so, the T1 Trust will have a collection of various parts (not a complete set), no way to assemble them and no more money to do so anyway due to a decline of interest in the project.

The T1 Trust has a flexible planning window that goes all the way out to 30 years (which iirc was the original completion date range -- things have gone much quicker than the original feasibility plan and planning review had thought -- so 'longer' is not an issue, nor is creeping factor cost year-over-year.  It is also true that general interest in a new E-class, let alone a dog like an E-4, is much less than in the T1 (for a variety of reasons I won't rehash).  To be honest they have already achieved enough in proof-of-concept with component manufacturers and fabrication to justify their existence, with no particular indication they would suffer 'declining interest' within the planned scope.

The problem with building something 'smaller' is that it will be less capable of the required kinds of operation to justify all the money spent first on it and then on its care, feeding, and boarding.  I'm not sure what potential excursions a replica 400-modified Pacific would handle that couldn't be done at least as well, probably better, by 765 or 261; more to the point, I can't imagine any C&NW excursion activity that wouldn't cut into the market for other big steam in the same general area -- are there that many C&NW fans that would ride repeatedly on the excursions and still contribute to all the others?  Much of the interest in the T1 comes from people who may like more conventional steam when they see it, but don't have specific attraction to famous-to-railfans locomotives. 

Now, if I were planning a restoration, it would be one of a couple of very specific prototypes: a Milwaukee A improved the same ways as the T1 will be, or a replica of the original Buchanan 999.  You wouldn't make much guaranteed excursion money out of either one, but you could certainly have fun with them that you can't with most of the other preserved engines out there...

I'd like to see the Brits do a replica LNER 10000, and fix the boiler and cleading issues with modern engineering.  THAT would be interesting, and comparable to the T1.

  • Member since
    September, 2013
  • 1,759 posts
Posted by Miningman on Sunday, October 08, 2017 8:24 PM

....and do not discount unexpected windfalls,,,have expanded my exploration and claims into diamonds as well as gold. Steady as she goes. Need a bit better health but claims are done and assessment work can be done with myself as a "sidewalk foreman" and digital modelling. 

  • Member since
    February, 2002
  • From: Mpls/St.Paul
  • 10,060 posts
Posted by wjstix on Monday, October 09, 2017 3:04 PM

Firelock76

Wow, that thing was gorgeous!  Leave it to the Brits to take a workhorse like a Mikado and make it look like a racehorse!

 

 
In the UK there weren't very many 2-8-2s, and (as has probably been noticed re the pics of these engines in service) I believe all were considered passenger engines.
Stix
  • Member since
    January, 2002
  • 3,055 posts
Posted by M636C on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 7:41 AM

kgbw49

A small class of 2 - the P1 class - were "freight hogs" with 62 inch drivers - 2393 and 2394:

 

 

A really good site....

https://www.lner.info/locos/P/p1.php

Peter

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 920 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:51 PM

Thank you, M636C! What a great site indeed to learn about LNER steam power!

The V2 Class among others were certainly prodigious with 184 in their class, being described as a 3-axle P2 - very handsome with three-coupled 74-inch drivers.

https://www.lner.info/locos/V/v2.php

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 920 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Thursday, October 12, 2017 3:55 PM

For comparison purposes:

P2

74 inch drivers - 8 coupled

43,462 lbs tractive effort

 

V2

74 inch drivers - 6 coupled

33,730 lbs tractive effort

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    January, 2002
  • 3,055 posts
Posted by M636C on Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:32 PM

kgbw49

Thank you, M636C! What a great site indeed to learn about LNER steam power!

The V2 Class among others were certainly prodigious with 184 in their class, being described as a 3-axle P2 - very handsome with three-coupled 74-inch drivers.

https://www.lner.info/locos/V/v2.php

I have the fifteen or so volume series by the Railway Correspondence and Travel Society on LNER locomotives, and I'm happy that the LNER website is accurate if not comprehensive. A couple of photos on the website are better than those in the books, which date back to the early 1970s (although it took more than twenty years for them to all appear).

There is a diagram of a poppet valve V2 with "Cock o' the North" shrouding in Volume 6B (I think) of the RCTS series. More conventional ideas won out, but the V2 was definitely seen as a smaller P2. The origial Gresley swing link leading truck was replaced later by Thompson which improved the running of the V2s and one of these will be fitted to Prince of Wales.

I have a soft spot for "Green Arrow" herself. It is sad that the damaged centre connecting rod has not been replaced.

I got a nice shot of 4771 at York in mid 1975 in the early morning as it left the depot (not yet open as a museum) for the station to work a special. It was in LNER Apple Green then.

We were out along the line to photograph the special, and it appeared on time in brilliant sunshine with B1 4-6-0 1306 Mayflower leading. As the train passed we all looked at eachother in confusion. The trailing loco was not the scheduled 4771 but 4472 Flying Scotsman. Some time between the early morning shed scene and the train's departure, Green Arrow had failed. The train looked much the same and we got a later shot on the King Edward Bridge in Newcastle.

But I have the black and white early morning shot of 4771 moving off to York station.

I'd probably be locked up as a terrorist for being in the yard today...

Peter

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 920 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Friday, October 13, 2017 2:36 PM
  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 920 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, October 14, 2017 11:35 PM

Well, these chaps are cracking right along then!

They have over half the boiler funds raised for their P2 Mikado, are working on a home base for Tornado and Prince of Wales in Darlington, and are making plans for their third build - V4 2-6-2 3403, and a fourth build - a V3 2-6-2T.

https://www.p2steam.com/category/news/

 

https://www.heritagerailway.co.uk/a1-steam-locomotive-trust-to-build-a-gresley-v4-and-v3/

Here is a V4 in goods service...renumbered to 1700... 68 inch drivers and 27,420 lbs tractive effort...

 Image result for gresley v4

 

 

 

  • Member since
    January, 2002
  • 3,055 posts
Posted by M636C on Monday, October 16, 2017 11:14 PM

While the V3 is a reasonable choice, there were quite a few in service, The V4 is an odd choice since there were only two. It may be that this is a Gresley vs Thompson thing, since Thompson built the class B1 4-6-0 rather than continue to develop the V4. The B1 was an entirely different design, larger and heavier but simpler and possibly more useful.

Interestingly, there were two designs of 2-6-0 that preceded the V2 and V4 and filled much the same role. The K3 was a heavy locomotive for fast freight with 5'8" wheels and was the class that introduced  the Gresley conjugated valve gear, actually designed by Harry Holcroft of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway. The K3s were built from 1920 until 1937, being superseded by the V2. With 193 locomotives, the K3 was the most numerous 3 cylinder Gresley locomotive. Six smaller and lighter locomotives, class K4 were built for the West Highland line also with the Gresley three cylinder arrangement. One of these survives and was used in the early years of preservation. A K4 was rebuilt by Thompson to become a new class K1, with two cylinders, and seventy of these were built and one of those survives as well.

So the V2 and V4 had predecessors in the K3 and K4 respectively.

No K3 was preserved, and one of Gresley's larger classes would seem to deserve recreation more than the V4....

Peter

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 920 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 7:52 AM

M636C, you have the most phenomenal posts! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge base with us!

Thanks also for your sentient thoughts on the V2 class - dual purpose power - brawny tonnage maulers and fleet of foot with the varnish, all wrapped up in a classy, balanced package.

Was there perhaps commonality of some components with the P2?

  • Member since
    October, 2013
  • 18 posts
Posted by nhrand on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 9:34 AM

In the USA we associate the 2-8-2 with freight service but in Europe the 2-8-2 was mainly a passenger engine.  France, Spain and Poland had sizable stables of Mikados for passenger service.  In this country designers preferred a four-wheel leading truck for high speeds but in Europe the two-wheel pony truck was often used for high speeds.  Consequently, a 2-8-2 in Europe could be considered the equivalent of a 4-8-2 in the USA given that European 2-8-2s often had drivers as high as those used on the 4-8-2 type here.  The 4-8-2 was not often seen in Europe.

 

  • Member since
    September, 2003
  • 3,915 posts
Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 12:13 PM

Part of the 2-8-2 as passenger engine came from the use of Krauss-Helmholtz or later bogies, which do not have the ‘classical’ supposed drawbacks to Bissel lead trucks on express power, and a Cartazzi axle at the rear (which gives radial compliance). A good K-H on a 2-8-2 is the ‘guiding equivalent’ of a 4-6-2 but with four driven axles.

If I recall correctly, a problem with the P2 was that it had too much TE for any contemporary British consist that would fit station platforms, and lighter weight associated with ’streamlined’ high-speed stock would only make the situation more extreme.  Since it was already observed that a good 4-cylinder 4-6-0 could do the work of a Pacific (until the fireman wore out!) there was little perceived need for an eight-coupled class even for dual service a la Niagara in the USA a couple of decades later.

Having just spent some time observing the ex-LS&MS grade in northeast Ohio, I am reminded of the tremendous speed that road’s master mechanics could supposedly get out of Prairies (which are the equivalent of Atlantics in the way a P2 is of a Pacific).  The two-wheel high-speed Bissel was summarily eliminated on orders from New York after the LS&MS was assimilated into the Vanderbilt Borg, much as the Wilgus electric pilot trucks were just a few years later, and while I don’t particularly trust a leading Bissel over a pin-guided Adams for dynamical-stability reasons, I have no reason to trust that the Prairies on the LS&MS were dogs or even particularly unstable in high-speed service.

  • Member since
    January, 2015
  • 920 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 7:21 PM

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy

Search the Community