I was recently reading about the New York Central's "Mohawk" #2933, now on display in St. Louis.
According to museum reports, after the locomotive was retired, it was saved from the torch by a group of employees who somehow "Hid" the locomotive in a switching yard for 3(?) years, until the museum acquired it.
My question is how did they manage to keep such a large locomotive hidden from railroad officials? Obviously, it would have dwarfed surrounding rolling stock. What could have been done to disguise it?
In the days before computers - all manner of rail equipment became 'lost'; either on purpose or through simple human error. Back in the day, there were any number of little used spurs where equipment could be placed and ultimately forgotten when a customer changed the mode of their shipping or went out of business.
There were a lot of cracks in equipment checking and accounting systems in days gone by for pieces of equipment to get lost in the cracks..
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I thought she was used in snow melting service? Take this news piece from the June 1960 issue of Trains for example.
New York Central tells Trains that unfortunately Mohawk 2933 "can't pass her I.C.C. physical (She is a little loose in the flues, among other ailments) and as a result her working days are over."
I interpret that as saying she was in use until fairly recently but that her life, either for continued snow melting service (Or perhaps as a stationary boiler?) or maybe even as a potential excursion engine now that steam excursions were starting to gain in popularity (There was a bit of hope there, as reported in the April issue that year), were finished.
It sure doesn't sound like a newspiece for a locomotive that had been kept hidden for years at that point. And there's a picture later that year of her sitting in Selkirk yard awaiting disposition with the caption saying that she's "too weary to run again". Odd comment to make if she had been long since retired and squirreled away until a savior appeared.
NYC steam in NYS ended in 1953, last run anywhere happened in 1956, and what was left was scrapped quickly over the next couple of years. Mohawk 2933, being an older model, probably hadn't been at the head end of a train since the early 1950's (Too old for the mainline, too big for light branch lines that sometimes were the last refuge of some real oldies on the NYC). So if they hid her, it must've been for the better part of a decade at Selkirk.
Luckily, as reported in the June 1962 issue, the NYC generously donated her to the Museum of Transport (And there's a picture in the September issue of her on her way there).
"Sentimental employees with a soft spot conspired to hide her from the scrap-happy 'bean-counter' accountants until such time as some museum could save her" is a legend that has been espoused about any number of steam locomotives, and even many trolleys, passenger cars, and electric locomotives. Indeed, as I type there is a locomotive or two allegedly being "hidden" for preservation in 2014.
There MAY be an element of truth in a couple of the stories hither and yon, and indeed I have heard two first-hand accounts of trolleys being shuffled from barn to barn in the middle of the night to stay ahead of management. But I have also seen the legend recounted about locomotives that were saved through other means. I am inclined to believe that this story is, in most cases, a fabrication spun by sympathetic railfans wanting to embellish the real-life survival of some "treasures" with a degree of unnecessarily exaggerated romanticism and heroism.
BaltACDIn the days before computers - all manner of rail equipment became 'lost'; either on purpose or through simple human error. Back in the day, there were any number of little used spurs where equipment could be placed and ultimately forgotten when a customer changed the mode of their shipping or went out of business.
This part of your comment reminded me of an incident that occurred a week or so after the NYC-PRR merger was consummated. A single sheathed wooden boxcar was discovered screened by some trees at the edge of the yard; no one could remember when the switch leading to that spur had been removed. The TM tossed a lighted fusee into the car and promised to fire the first guy who called the fire department. End of problem.
ChuckAllen, TX
I recall an article by Don Phillips about an abandoned box car left on a spur track for many, many years. The car and it's contents were sold to a local scrapper and what was inside? Two brand-new Packards.
It wasn't unusual for a railroad that had "dieselized" to keep a few steam engines in 'stored serviceable' status, being held just in case they're needed because of a sudden uptick in traffic or something. I believe the DMIR had steam engines on the roster in that state until like 1967. It could be the NYC engine was tucked away somewhere 'stored serviceable' and stuck around long enough to be preserved.
My favorite misplaced equipment story is the gondola of 'dirt' that sat around a yard for a long time, eventually someone used it to help ballast some repaired track. Turned out the 'dirt' was in fact a lost car of gold ore.
After the Erie and the Lackawanna merged, an Erie switcher which had been recently painted ERIE just before the merger would be tucked away in a shop building when head brass visited. This way no one would spot it and send it to the paint shop to have the last remnant of the once proud Erie painted over. I believe it was in Marion Ohio.
wjstix It wasn't unusual for a railroad that had "dieselized" to keep a few steam engines in 'stored serviceable' status, being held just in case they're needed because of a sudden uptick in traffic or something. I believe the DMIR had steam engines on the roster in that state until like 1967. It could be the NYC engine was tucked away somewhere 'stored serviceable' and stuck around long enough to be preserved. My favorite misplaced equipment story is the gondola of 'dirt' that sat around a yard for a long time, eventually someone used it to help ballast some repaired track. Turned out the 'dirt' was in fact a lost car of gold ore.
I don't think the Mohawk was forgotten on a bit of spurred track, it showed up to the museum on fair condition. Someone had been looking after it, and I do believe there HAD to be someone hiding it.
While other cases may have been exciting bits of lore that were told, there is evidence that the locomotive was truly put away somewhere that it wasn't planned to be....
It could also be that the locomotive was put in "ready-service" to be used in times of high traffic on the line, but I doubt this...
OMG, this is the same story told when ConRail came about. The 'old timers' were upset over the demise of the EL, so a lone EL switcher was kept out of sight and out of mind when 'management' came to town. The story goes this SW stuck around well into the ConRail blue era, being called for late night drills.
They weren't keeping a single aged Mohawk around for years in case there was a traffic boom.
I suspect she was used as a boiler, explaining her longevity. Two uses spring to mind as possibilities; being used to melt snow and ice to clear switches and the like around Selkirk, or being kept up as portable emergency boiler at Selkirk in case something like a shop building somewhere on the system had a major failure with its heating system.
Being kept hidden away is a neat story and occasionally, seems to be true like with the PRR E7 that ended up being preserved as the last of its kind. But it's easy to be skeptical since almost the exact same story has been told about so many different pieces (A slight variation that is also common is the ruse being discovered and the bean counters ordering what should've been a treasured museum piece to be scrapped).
I suspect it's most likely that when her running days were over and she was sidelined, she had enough flue time left where she was able to enjoy a second career providing useful service of another sort, allowing her to survive long enough to be saved.
Leo_Ames They weren't keeping a single aged Mohawk around for years in case there was a traffic boom.
Nobody said they did. I said most (all?) railroads that dieselized kept some engines 'stored serviceable' for several years after the road had stopped using steam. Some railroads (like the Burlington) did in fact pull stored steam engines out of storage and use them. With a railroad as large as the NYC, they may have had a number kept somewhere, or spread out over several divisions. As noted, it's quite possible some were used as stationary boilers etc.
BTW according to the OP it was only 3 years. IIRC NYC stopped using steam in 1957, so we're only talking about going to 1960 or so.
That being said, the hardest part of the story for me is that the NYC tended to sell their engines for scrap very quickly...in fact, I believe they ended up having a power shortage for a time because they had gotten rid of steam before all the diesel replacements had arrived. A big part of the reason no Hudsons or Niagaras were saved was because as soon as they were retired, NYC sold them for scrap to get money to keep the railroad going. They didn't donate them to parks or cities, they just took the money and ran. It seems hard to believe employees could "hide" an engine for three years in that environment. However, it may be a scrapper held onto the engine for a while - maybe even had employees for their's delay / "hide" the engine until they could find someone to take it for preservation purposes??
The major reason there was mass scrappings from 1955-1957 with nothing saved for posterity despite the significance of something like the pioneering Hudson and their contribution to the railroad and this nation was upper management. Al Perlman had no use for the thought of preserving steam power. They were a sign of the bad old days of inefficient motive power that weren't worth memorializing.
And people did suggest that's why she outlasted all of her more modern sisters on the system. Like I said, that's not why she survived. And it was me that suggested she stuck around not as a locomotive, but because her boiler could still provide useful alternate service of some sort.
And by the end of steam, the situation was as I stated. On the mainlines were NYC's most modern power, on the branches and such were more modern 2-8-2's and such that were more versatile than a 4-8-2 and some real relics from the turn of the century in a few spots with light axle loadings. And steam in New York State, where she had been for quite a number of years by the time she was donated, had came to a definitive end nearly a decade earlier.
The end of steam for this class of Mohawks, the L-2's from the 1920's, would've been from approximately 1948-1952. Too old and underpowered to survive as long as her more modern sisters on mainline runs, and too large for the branches once locomotives like RS-3's and GP7's took the sort of assignments she was best suited for away.
If they thought she had any use as a reserve locomotive, it would've been firmly put to rest by 1955 or so (By then, all the infrastructure to support steam in the region around Selkirk would've been gone anyways). Yet she remained Central's property into the 1960's. I very much doubt that they kept her so well hidden at Selkirk that she outlasted every sister by a half decade.
She had to of been providing useful service for the railroad of another sort to explain her longevity in the face of resistance from upper management. She lasted long enough and was getting a bit of attention where they probably decided the negative press wasn't worth the scrap dollars and finally made an exception to their policy when her 2nd life came to an end (Even the other Mohawk that was saved was sold into preservation, not donated).
I occasionally hear that the reason UP still has two engines lettered CNW is because the Chicago motive power guy is a fan who tries to keep them in the area so they won't wander down to North Little Rock and get repainted. Don't know if it's true.
I've heard the same story but I would opine that higher tiers of management may also be looking the other way in regards to renumbering and/or repainting C&NW 8646 and 8710.
As Above.
At the steel mill.
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/stelco/nychudson.htm
A 4-10-4 in the future???
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/stelco/CO2808.jpg
Thank You.
5406 would have looked a lot better, and we would be very happy for generations to come, seeing her next to a park bench. Just my two cents from a 20th century point of view.
NDG
Thats no C&O 4-8-4 it appears to by a NYC Mohawk 2808 cut exactly in half between the 2nd and 3rd driver set.
Can't imagine scrapping a steam locomotive in this fashion. Appears to be some kind of estranged modification. Cut is exactly around the boiler and the flues are pulled out entirely intact. Wondring what the story on this photo is?
All steam locomotive scrapping I have seen has been random cutting any size to get in the furnace.
Dr. D
Definitely a NYC Mohawk. Always read captions with a skeptical eye.
Maybe, given the suits in the photo, this was the last one to come through so it was time to show off some cutting skills? Given what we know of steam, the cut throgh the a solid cast steel frame must have taken days!
seppburgh2
There is a tool unlike any other tool called - the OX-ACETYLENE WELDING TORCH. This was developed in the early part of the 20th Century.
Originally it was used in welding - the OX-ACETYLENE TORCH can be used for cutting steel or any other ferious metal. Basically by changing the tip of the welder to the cutting tip - the torch heats a small section of the steel or iron to a dull red then to orange then to white where the steel begins to burn - by pressing the cutting lever, a jet of pure OXYGEN is then blowen onto the white hot steel and a cutting process begins which very quickly can cut steel of tremendous thickness in seconds. The cutting process uses no more heat that that used in the pre-heat process the oxygen stream causes the steel to burn.
If I were to take a small OX-ACETYLENE welding setup - (two small tanks and hose apparatus) - which can be purchased anywere. If I were to take this to the local railroad main line track - light the torch heat a section of the rail - I could cut the track apart instantly.
Those steam engines were easy work for this process as are the great ship that go to the wrecking beach in India or Turkey where teams of the poorest people have these torches and cut apart the great ocean liners and ships like a "knife thru butter."
Cutting that steam engine in half was just hours work - and the frame itself as cut by burning almost instantly.
By the way you can get an OX-ACETYLENE torch at any heating cooling sales or welding equipment store for about $300. You can learn to cut steel with it in about 10 minutes. Padlocks, chains, fences, cars nothing is safe from scrapping with this tool.
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Concerning Mohawk NYC 2808 - Another thing that surprised me about this photo of a severed engine was that the side rods were removed and not cut in half. Also the boiler seems to be cut around in a circle a second time about 6 feet ahead of the cut that divides the engine. You can tell where the paint has been burned off around the cut steel - whiteish band around the boiler.
I'm guessing NYC 2808 was in for NYC shop repair with the side rods off - the cost was deemed to much and it went to scrap where the railroad itself cut it up in some fashion more professionally than a salvage yard would use. Guessing maybe the guys in suits are railroad managment. In front of NYC 2808 is the entire set of flues and superheater header from another cut up locomotive.I am also guessing the photo of NYC 5406 and the photo of NYC 2808 might be concurent NYC photos from where?
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Companies like Northwestern Steel and Wire in Aurora, Illinois didn't have the time to scrap locomotives like this - they just started cutting big chunks of locomotive and then with a magnet crane lifted them into gondolas which went right into the open hearth furnace and were melted. Endless runs of this steel were made as fleets of locomotives were scrapped one after the other. This made for some grusome railfan photos.
Oddly the Northwestern yard used a couple of Grand Trunk Western switch engines sold to them for scrap and used them for their own rail yard service right up into the 1970s. Because they were not used in "common carrier service" they did not need to pass ICC maintaince requirements. The ICC used to regulate all steam locomotive by law until President Ronald Regan disolved that branch of the Federal Govenment. There was no FRA requirement on steam locomotives until the recent Gettysburg boiler explosion accident. Northwestern could use these locomotives as long as they would run safely.
A few years ago there was a Burlington 2-8-2 that went to North Western Steel and Wire for scrapping in the 1980's. Some rail fan group intervened that had gotten the donation of those Northwestern/Grand Trunk Western 0-8-0 switch engines. This group traded the 0-8-0's for the 2-8-2. The GTW 0-8-0's switch engines which had hauled so many of their sister steam locomotives into the furnace went in themselves. I am sure someone here has the story of this.
David S I occasionally hear that the reason UP still has two engines lettered CNW is because the Chicago motive power guy is a fan who tries to keep them in the area so they won't wander down to North Little Rock and get repainted. Don't know if it's true.
May well be. It would be the same guy that designed the paint scheme they carry.
Dr DThere is a tool unlike any other tool called - the OX-ACETYLENE WELDING TORCH. This was developed in the early part of the 20th Century.
Just to add a bit: The oxyacetylene welding torch uses acetylene (C2H2 with a high-energy triple bond between the carbons) and oxygen to obtain a HOTTER flame, with only the amount of oxygen feed to give complete combustion of the acetylene fuel gas. You can use reducing and oxidizing portions of the torch flame, but the flame cone itself is comparatively short. The cutting torch has a different architecture - like the oxygen lance, it uses a separate high-pressure jet of oxygen that does essentially ALL THE CUTTING. No added hydrocarbon fuel is required; you could shut off the acetylene completely once the critical heating temperature (technically autoignition temperature) is reached, and the cutting will be self-sustaining via the (highly exothermic) reaction of iron/steel with oxygen. Cut depth can be greater than 8", especially if (as in scrapping) you don't care how straight the edges of the cut are. I'm sure there are pro welders here who can contribute further insights.
I believe the pictures were taken at the Stelco steel mill in Hamilton, Ontario. It had not occurred to me that NYC or perhaps other US railroads sold locomotives to foreign scrappers -- so this was useful information.
Wizlish,
I have come to love the OX-ACETYLENE torch over the years, mostly for automotive use in burning exhaust pipes and or heating rusted bolts so they will unscrew easily.
Industrial uses of "the torch" are really quite dramatic. You talk about the oxygen lance which I personally have never seen but its industrial use is outstanding. Take the large cast steel frame of a locomotive. The OX-ACETYLENE torch cutting tip has a large pre-heat nozzle which in this case would be used to heat a small edge of a large steel casting. When the edge gets red hot and goes to orange and white the cutting lever is pressed. This jets pure oxygen into the steel and starts the burn. Cutting proceeds quickly as the oxygen reduces the steel to molton drops of metal.
At this point an OXYGEN LANCE basically a tube with jet of pure OXYGEN is blowen into the cutting steel the process accelerates and the OX-ACETYLENE torch itself can be removed or turned off. The OXYGEN LANCE will cut apart the locomotive frame by itself with no heat other than the burning steel.
I have seen pictures in industry where steel foundry workers will trim fresh cast steel castings with this tool. Cuts in steel that are 12 inches thick are easily severed.
Actually this type of process was used in war where Armor Piercing amunition creates this type of burn with a cone shaped charge and will burn right through thick tank armor. This was the WWII Bazooka rocket and the German Panzerfaust. It is the principle behind modern Tank destroyer weapons today and is defeated by ceramic armor or explosive balistic armor that explodes sending the anti tank rocket into pieces before it can burn into the tank armor.
Interesting chemical reaction of steel is the result of the steel burning process the chemical formula of which I am not immediately familiar.
Glad you identified the location of the NYC 2808 demise am wondering if the Hudson pic was the same location?
I worked at the now closed and mostly torn down Bethlehem Steel plant in Lackawanna NY from 1967 to 1983. The old-timers had many stories and photos of the mostly NYC locomotives that were scrapped at the mill. Some of these men were horrified that not one Hudson or Niagara was spared. But, my boss told me, "if it makes you feel any better, not one bell went into the furnace." I suspect this was more acting on railfan nostalgia than keeping undesirable tramp elements out of the steel.
S. Connor I was recently reading about the New York Central's "Mohawk" #2933, now on display in St. Louis. According to museum reports, after the locomotive was retired, it was saved from the torch by a group of employees who somehow "Hid" the locomotive in a switching yard for 3(?) years, until the museum acquired it. My question is how did they manage to keep such a large locomotive hidden from railroad officials? Obviously, it would have dwarfed surrounding rolling stock. What could have been done to disguise it?
S. ConnorMy question is how did they manage to keep such a large locomotive hidden from railroad officials? Obviously, it would have dwarfed surrounding rolling stock. What could have been done to disguise it?
My Merriam-Wedster Pocket Dictionary defines "hide" as: 1) put or remain out of sight; 2) conceal; 3) keep secret. This discussion offers an adequate sufficiency of these.
That dictionary offers a fourth definition: to turn away.
There is an old adage: "None is so blind as they who will not see". I shall now resort to the legal "tactic" of "hypothetical". After that group of employees has done their thing, the "Hypothetical Railroad Officials" silently join the effort to save. You gotta understand that they don't lie -- but, as a good Yankee is want to say: "They is a mite frugal with the truth". It helps if "hypothetically" somehow "the save" is removed from inventory. All this accomplished, both the bean counters and the board (or anyone else) has no record of "the save" and no reason to ask. All this accomplished, "the save" is as effectively hidden as if garbed in a Harry Potter cloak of invisibility.
Back to the world of reality -- anything like this might get someone fired, might get someone sued. (Think LaSalle & Bureau County boxcars). Hence, the "Official Story" of the save might seem "a mite frugal with the truth" if not outright inaccurate.
It is here that the men get seperated from the boys. The serious (and honest) railway enthusiasts (to borrow a term from the Brits) is most thankful that "the save" was accomplished, yet another piece of vital railway history being preserved for future generations. The means of the save are totally secondary and the details of those means are none of his business.
[quote user="S. Connor"]
My question is how did they manage to keep such a large locomotive hidden from railroad officials? Obviously, it would have dwarfed surrounding rolling stock. What could have been done to disguise
According to the Morning Sun book, "New York Central Steam, In Color", the following may help explain the survival of the Mohawk at the Museum of Transportation at St Louis: "The 2933 now located at the Museum of Tranport, St Louis, MO was used as a temporary heating boiler at Selkirk. After serving this duty, it was hidden from view by local supervision by piling boxes around it. there you have it!
In a lot of cases they were also unable to legally scrap the locomotives until their trust certificates expired or were paid off. The modern day equivalent would be buying a new car on credit and running it to junk before you made the last payments. You would be unable to legally sell it to a scrapyard until you paid off the loan. Clinchfield's challenger-types survived until 1963 for this reason alone.
NdeM6400 In a lot of cases they were also unable to legally scrap the locomotives until their trust certificates expired or were paid off. The modern day equivalent would be buying a new car on credit and running it to junk before you made the last payments. You would be unable to legally sell it to a scrapyard until you paid off the loan. Clinchfield's challenger-types survived until 1963 for this reason alone.
Norfolk & Western went through this legal fol-de-rol with its Train Masters in the early 1970's. The ex-Wabash TM's were in the 3590 series and at least two of them (3592 & 3599, IIRC) were scrapped before the equipment trusts were paid off. Ex-VGN TM's were renumbered to replace the scrapped locomotives.
RUN little locomotive RUN! - them greedy scrappers is after you!
Doc
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