Juniatta, would you do the following modifications to your J3A modified Dryfuss design?
1. Extend the two white stripes and the grey metal background to the front catwalk steps.
2. Move the curve in front of the firebox immediately behind the dirves to the rear under the cab, exposing the firebox "au natural." Keep the curve full hight where it will provide a natural complelment to the tender.
3. Provide a view with the nose fin and one without, the latter having the front of the "skyline casing" handled much like the Daylights and the NH I-5.
Please?
Dave,
Wouldn't it end up looking like this in NYC paint?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PRR_K4s_1120.jpg
M636C
There would be similarities, but the metal and stripes under the side catwalk are thinner and thus in better proportion to the bulk of the locomotive. Also, the J3a was a longer locomotive, and thus, expecially when streamlined, more graceful than the K4, with a longer tender as well. And the Dryfuss curve (located by Dryfuss behing the drivers) is more graceful, picking up the curve of the drivers even though behind the firebox, giving more unity and less arbitraryness to the sheetmetal tie-in to the tender.
To me a streamlined K4 looks less graceful than a raw K4. What I am trying to do is correct the problems I have wih Dryfuss' design. Juniatta made a good beginning, but there is no reason to stop the twin stripes half way to the ruuningboard staris, and I think covering the firebox seems arbitrary once the drivers are exposed, expecially with sheet metal angle duplicating the angle of the firebox bottom and unrelated to the overall streamlining. I think the raw J3a is a good looking locomotive. Yes, I like the DL&fW Hudson better, but the J3a is still good raw. Juniatta has come up with a streamline design that is about as good as the raw J3a. I'd like her to try my further midifications and then get her real opinion of them.
Pardon my poor spelling, Juniatha! I did some work and would like to post it, but that is beyond the equipment I am using now. If someone will give me an email address to send it as an attachment, jpg, he or she can post it. I did not remove the fin. I did expose the firebox with a curved transition to the tender at the rear and extended the two white stripes to the front stair. I like it, and maybe others will also. My email addrss is daveklepper@yahoo.com
What works for the NYC J3a does not work for the N&W J which is better as is. The boiler and the firebox covering are a darker grey, the four drive wheels as opposed to three on the Hudson give a long-enough picture of exposed "works".
Hi Dave
sorry for taking my time ...
I'm not sure if I should do that . You see , when modifying a design I respect the original idea - only point I'm aiming at is to straighten out some points that have - with time passing , I suppose - turned out less convincing or tend to disturb the general layout .
What you suggest would almost ask for a de-dreyfussing the J-3a and adding some more loewylike lines to it . To me this would appear disrespectful to both designers who certainly wished to display an expression of form distinctive of their own .
Also , I feel like what you want pretty much was realized in New Haven's I-5 4-6-4 , wasn't it ?
see http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_nh1400.jpg
Concerning inherent logic in the Dreyfuss design , to my interpretation -
a - it was not so much a streamlining proper but an Art Deco application ( I write Art Deco in spite of one user having cleverly noted this expression had only been coined much later , I do so because the expression is understood as a name for that period's styling as applied from cars to ships to buildings - and also to locomotives )
b - that said , the arrangement of sheet metals was not so much aiming at reducing wind resistance as it was at giving style and emphasis to major lines of the body of the locomotive . That for , one major focus is on actual engine performance as represented by the unity of cylinders , rods and main drive wheel set , as perfected with roller bearings and Scullin disc wheels in clean metal and light grey . From that central point of propulsion - main driver - backwards starts another visual main focus , this time on energy production : heat energy released in firebox and combustion chamber whose principal shapes are neatly transcribed and emphasized in an elegantly sweeping combination .
c - what combines heat energy production and its application for propulsion is the skyline casing running over the entire length of the boiler and sharpening into that boldly crescented casque together with an ingeniously straight and simple , yet sharp front apron forming the layout's major contribution to actual reduction of wind resistance .
Regards
Juniatha
OOOOO Juniatha, you're back! NorthWest and I were getting worried!
And you're right, as always. That flashy streamline styling really didn't have much to do with reducing wind resistance, it was more for looks than anything else.
It did look cool, though! How I wish one had been saved.
Wayne
I think these suggestions make it look like the Empire State Hudson...
Juniatha, your extension of the stripes from the tender half-way to the front steps is probably intended to unify the locomotive with the tender and the train it is pulling. So, that is where we disagree. I don't want a Baux Arts or Art Deco work of art pulling MY beautiful train, any more than I want a Rembrant or Picasso Painting pulling my train. I want a locomotive that looks like it is designed to pull MY train. The EMD and Alco stylists that designed the E-units and the DL-109 and PA designed them to look like they were matched to the following train. To me, though I like the New Haven I-5 a lot, it would have been even better if the cab, the running board, the tender's sides, and the front stairs had all been dark Hunter green, to better match the "American Flyer" 8200-series early lightweight coaches they often pulled. The N&W J looks like it is intended to pull a string of Tuscan red coaches. The Daylight 4-8-4's were well matched to their trains. Their styling is timeless, to me. The Dryfuss J looks silly, or gt least very dated, to me. Anyway, I hope a friend will post my crude representation of what I think it should look like.
Of course, for most of its history as a steam-hauled "streamliner," the Century was pulled by non-streamlined Niagras. Lowey was the victor assuming he helped with the T-1 design. (The Eternal loves irony.)
Please understand that I greatly respect Dryfuss as an industrial designer, and so also respect Juniatha's work and opinions. In general, having rode both the Broadway and the Century when both were all-Pullman (but hauled by E-units), I think the better of Dryfuss' interiors that RL's, both good. And Dryfuss did do a fine job of making the J3-a into an Art Deco work of art. But I think it was the wrong thing to do to a locomotive. And I have a one picture of three Dryfuss J3a's lined up on my bedroom wall!
Regarding Loewy's K4, I think his treatment looked far better on the S-1.
The stage curtain at Hungerford's Railroads on Parade at the 1939-1940 Worlds Fair was a Loewy K4 on the left and a Dryfuss J3a on the right, moving nose to nose as curtain closing and backing off-stage as curtain openings.
Locomotives designed and built as streamliners looked much better than existing locomotives that were modified into streamliners. The N&W J and the PRR S-1 looked much more sleek, not bulky or stubby. The streamlined K4, as I have prevously mentioned, looked like it ate one too many pieces of dessert. The NYC J3, reminded me of an incomplete painting, once you got beyond the nose it just didn't match up well.
The streamlined J3 used on most posters only showed its impressive front, a trendy look for the era.
But, streamlining was the trend of the day and the railroads tried to respond. In my opinion other road's attempts had shared in the visual gaudiness. So from that perspective you just have to appreciate the N&W J's and the S-1 a little more. Maybe back then gaudy was the thing, if my grandmothers "parlor" was any indication of that, yes...gaudy was in.
Gaudy may not be quite the right word. The Art Deco designs did include a lot of bright colors but they also went for clean, straight lines without the extraneous ornamentation of the Victorian and Edwardian periods that you probably saw in Grandma's parlor.
I am hoping that if you get to see my revised version, crude as my photoediting is, that you might say it almost looks as if designed from scratch as a streamlined locomotive.
To Dave K:
Sorry to go off topic Dave, but I noticed your post mentioning the 1939-1940 New York World's Fair. Do you have first hand memories of the Fair? And if so, which one do you think was better, the 1939 Fair or the 1964 Fair?
Reason I ask is my family went to the 1964 Fair, and Mom, who remembered the one from 1939, swore the '39 Fair was a LOT better.
I just have to ask.
I was the acoustical engineer for the Chrysler Pavilion, and worked with others on some of the other 64 WF projects. What I enjoyed most there was the Pepsi It is a small world show, which was reconfigured and is permanent at Disney, Florida. So I made many trips to the 64 WF and rode the 7 subway line very frequently. But the 39-40 was better, your Mom is correct. And doubly better for railfans . There has never been a show to compare with Hungerford;s Railroads on Parade, with the whole story of US railroading presented with operating equpment. I think a Tom Thumb replica was there, the Promitory Point experience, the first Pullman car, a cut away of a new rooomette sleeper, just about the whole history of (mostly passenger) railroading up to that point. An EMD E-unit was at the GM exhibit with side panels replaced by glass so you could look at the prime movers. A lightweight Juniatta-built PRR reclining-seat coach was coupled to a then fairly new New Haven American Flyer 8200-series, and the PRR S-1 was steamed up and on roller rails as in a testing location, with its pistons, rods, and wheels in motion. And a complete Flying Scottsman train with Gresley A-4. You could walk through the train, including the coridor tender. GM's predictions of the world of the future in miineature was terrific, and well as a similar peek of the future at the Perisphere interior. At the extreme east end of the grounds you found a temporary extension of the GG IND line, with special, at the current Willets Point Station.steel Stienways amd Wolds Fair IRT cars, often coupled together in the same trains to Times Squre, the current 7 line, the BMT's "Q" cars, composits fairly modern looking rebuilt from old wood gate cars to Queensbooro Plaze for transfer to the wider BMT steels, and gate cars themselves, still running a Second Avenue elevated service over the 59th Street Queensboro Bridge. Also, directly from Brooklyn, the steel Peter Witt 6000 and 8000 series steel streetcars still ran through the area, and the LIRR gave you Penn Station for "Ten Miles, Ten Minutes, Ten Cents." (Actual running time was 12 minutes, but as a 7-1/2 year old railfan I enjoyed a front platform ride, jumped as the whistle blew automaticaly for the first restricting signal when approaching Penn Station.).
Thanks so much for the response Dave! The '39 Fair is one thing I would have loved to have seen.
Keep telling your stories of New York in the old days, I never get tired of hearing them. Matter of fact, it would be fun to get you and Mom (who's an old NYC girl) in the same room for a "remember when?
Dave, reading your memories is fascinating. I'd like it if you would create a thread detailing all of your rail-related memories. The more history we can preserve, the better. And first-hand accounts are the best.
Let me try to post my J3a
Here it is ! The Daveklepper streamlined J-3a
with Juniatha specification cylinders and tender
Dave, you need to put it up as a Web-enabled image, for example on one of the photo-posting sites. Then use the image pasting tool in the bar just above where you type your posts (its icon looks like a little picture of a computer monitor with a camera-lens objective in the lower right corner -- on the bottom row, left of the icon that looks like movie film, seventh in from the little smiley). Paste the URL for your Web-posted image into the tool, and the picture will (or should) appear inline for our delectation.
In some cases (where the copy-protection and DMCA safeguards are configured) you won't be able to get the image itself to appear. In that case you can either quote the URL as you would for any other, or just paste it in so we can copy into our browsers and access it.
where do you suggest I post it? have not done this previously
A simple introduction (if you'll forgive the title they use) is here. There are some rail-specific sites like railpictures.net, but there may be moderators who select only pictures that are 'good enough' (by their standards, of course) to be hosted.
A possible alternative is to subscribe to a forum or list that still features direct upload to a Web-accessible server. One such is Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine where you can join free, then follow the directions to upload an image that will then have a Web-enabled URL associated with it.
Looks terribly complicated just for one picture. (Checked both.) Can you give me your email address by contacting me at daveklepper@gmail.com and let me send the pix to you as a simple jpg attachment?
1. I am sorry that I offended you by using your image as the basis for the image I emailed you.
2. I do not claim to have your skills are the expert, and not I. Whatever I can do, is by use of MSPaint and MS Photo Editor, not more advanced programs. I'd frankly prefer a better presentation of my basic idea.
3. I successfully posted my image on the website you suggested, but cannot figure out what the URL address is for it. If I use what I thought it was, I get a not applicable signal from this thread's camera icon window.
n creating such images. You
Dave ,
you got it - as an exception although generally I don't like nonchalant use of my photo-individualization ; I would have thought you'd do yours from an original .
Don't think twice - it's alright -
for now
= J =
----
Above the icon I attempted to use.
Or simply the address without the ability to actually post the photo:
0mwh84j
There may be some incompatibility issues between the Hebrew-enabled computers in Israel and various websites in the USA. For example there are yahoo applications that are not available to me, simply reading the Hebrew "page not available." In any case, I do not understand why Kalmbach does not facilitate simply inserting from file, jpg or whatever, into text on a specific posting.
Comments on the design, even though just b&w so far?
Other factors migiht be the connection I am using is wireless, the same as used by my cellphone, and while there is ample data bandwidth, possibly address bandwidth or characters are limited. Possibly in the future I will have a wire connection and able to the system others use in posting photos.
daveklepper 0mwh84j Other factors migiht be the connection I am using is wireless, the same as used by my cellphone, and while there is ample data bandwidth, possibly address bandwidth or characters are limited. Possibly in the future I will have a wire connection and able to the system others use in posting photos.
IN looking over the b&w of my design, I see one obvious place for improvement, extend the cab a bit, make it a vestibiule cab, as used on some Canadian and Great Norhern locomotives, give the crew more comfort, and have a functional reason for the curved transition to the streamlined tender, as it would include the ladder to the cab door. The result would then be a very balanced design, and the only problem is that it probably would join the Niagra as being too long for certain NYC turntables.
The reason why this design looks right to me is that the firebox balances the cylinders!
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