Check the News Wire for the full story. It's promising to see another Claytor behind this.
Any opinions on the outcome? Comments?
And if you want to just foam, go ahead.
I'm not going to hold my breath on this matter. Aside from the obvious issue of finances, there is still the problem of the availability of parts and (skilled) labor to maintain any steam locomotive.
When I first read this I was ready to put my hand over my heart and swoon! Lady Firestorm (who calls 611 "MY ENGINE!", she's quite the Art Deco fan, don't ya know?) and I rode behind 611 numerous times and will never love another steam engine like we love the "J".
That said, I've put my "wait and see" mode into operation. Yes, the expertise is there to get it running again, it was put away in good condition so restoration to operation shouldn't be too difficult. Money, of course, is going to be the issue. Mr. Mooreman's willing to let it run on NS rails but hasn't said anything about funding a restoration. I don't blame him, he'd have to make a case to the board of directors before he could do so.
Hopefully we'll see the "Thoroughbred of Steam, born to run born to be free" run again, but I'll save the swoon for when it happens. Best of luck to the committee! They're doing the Lord's work on this one!
my son was born the same week 611 dropped her last fire , so i told him 611 died so he could live lol
well he sent me the link about the 611 coming back lol ,so of course it will happen my son turned 18 so now the 611 can come back to life
Wayne,
I hope you and your wife stay with your first love, the art deco 611.
The New York Central was not to be outdone in this field. Henry Dreyfus designed a cover for its Hudson locomotive that pulled the 20th Century Limited. I'm partial to that one because it was part of my Lionel when I was young. Here is a link to an image of the New York Central's entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NYC_Hudson2.jpg
John
John, I would have LOVED to have seen a Dreyfuss Hudson "in the flesh", so to speak. Lady Firestorm even more so. NOTHING shouts "1930's Art Deco" like the Dreyfuss Hudson. What a work of genius! And what a tragedy that not one Hudson, NOT ONE, streamlined or otherwise, was saved. Would it have affected the NYC's bottom line all that much, considering those engines sold for pennies on the pound as scrap?
It's a shame.
Wayne
It is a sin and a shame that not only the NYC Art Moderne Hudsons but so many railroad artifacts have been trashed. From the end of the Civil War until the 1920's railroads were a very large part of our history. Most likely you know the details better than I. Yet so much of that history is gone, just gone.
Firelock76 John, I would have LOVED to have seen a Dreyfuss Hudson "in the flesh", so to speak. Lady Firestorm even more so. NOTHING shouts "1930's Art Deco" like the Dreyfuss Hudson. What a work of genius! And what a tragedy that not one Hudson, NOT ONE, streamlined or otherwise, was saved. Would it have affected the NYC's bottom line all that much, considering those engines sold for pennies on the pound as scrap? It's a shame. Wayne
Fast forward to today. How many -7 GEs are preserved? -8s? Even certain classes of EMD switchers or 1st gen power?
*crickets*
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
John I asked Lady Firestorm about this. The Dreyfuss Hudsons and the N&W J's are Art Deco. The Pennsy T-1 is Art Moderne. Lady Firestorm knows these things!
And Zugmann, I've read the reason for lack of diesel preservation is most rail preservation societies were started by steam fans who HATED diesels and what they did to their beloved steam engines, hence the loss of some diesel types. As time goes on that will probably change.
Perhaps I have some art history to learn from your wife, Wayne.
I understood art deco refers not to one style of art but to art that is made using industrial techniques and that there are may styles of art deco. Art modern is one style of art deco. It emphasizes a streamlined look with smooth curving lines.
Whatever you call 611's style, it is one impressive locomotive. I had the privalidge of being the pilot engineer on a ferry run down the RF&P around 1983, I think. We had 23 cars in consist. The 611 marched up Franconia hill like a champ. I don't think the Governers could have held a candle to that performance. Of course, if we were to compare them on the basis of looks, those RF&P gentlemen were a handsome lot! But they were gone before my time. Anyway, yes, please bring back the 611.
The 611 will steam again there is little doubt about that. I am sure the money is already starting to pour in. I wouldn't be surprised to see a record for fund raising, as well as a record for getting the locomotive back into running condition. Norfolk Southern seems to be itching to get steam back on the rails. This is a win win situation all around.
RFP John, you are one lucky, lucky man! I've been in 611's cab on a walk through, I would have killed to ride in it. No, not really, but you know what I mean.
And I'll tell you, the RF&P was a class act all around. I would have loved to have seen it in the glory days.
Firelock76ohn I asked Lady Firestorm about this. The Dreyfuss Hudsons and the N&W J's are Art Deco. The Pennsy T-1 is Art Moderne. Lady Firestorm knows these things!
Someone was being very selective in sources for the good Lady's education.
Those locomotives were not 'Art Deco' if for no other reason that the term wasn't invented until the 1960s. (Unless she read Corb in the original French!)
The term derives from discussion of the style in the Exposition internationale des arts décoratifs et industriels modernes of 1925 -- and is the flowery, decorative style of architecture that was popular ... well, in the late '20s and early '30s. (And the antithesis of the International Style, or what Corb was doing at Garches or with the sugar cubes at Pessac, etc. etc. etc.)
It is NOT 'art moderne' which is better known in this context as 'Streamline Moderne' -- I have my doubts about exactly how much of the actual T1 esthetics, at least the 'later' production ones, actually fit this style, although the original two do. I would strongly put 611's streamlining treatment in this category, but it is clearly '40s-'50s streamline moderne if you know what to look for in the handling of the details -- notably the grille across the top front of the streamlined casing.
PLEEEEEZE don't go throwing popular terms around as if they all mean the same thing!
RME (card-carrying member of the New York Art Deco Society)
Hard to believe that it's been almost 20 years now since I last saw her.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
The list of committe members seems to be an optimistic rail oriented group, nice to see a feasibility study being done with that attitude and not a group of politically or corporate motivated nay sayers. Hope they get positive info for this to move forward. I seen the 611 in action and to get her back would be awsome to say the least.
For some odd reason the NYC did not save many locomotives, unlike many other larger RR's during that time. Not like scrap metal was going to eliminate your financial woes.
When will museums start preserving diesel locomotives, when they realize there are very few left and then start to scrape the earth to get one. I say do it now, while there are many available and at good price, maybe even free.
Overmod, I'm not going to argue with you. Maybe the term "Art Deco" itself wasn't invented until the '60s, maybe it was prior to, but WHAT it was certainly influenced Dreyfuss, Harley Earle, Raymond Lowey and others back in the '30s. The design philosophy was around and influential, we can see it from cars to trains to airplanes to the Chrysler Building. When the term itself was adopted is immaterial.
And you DON'T want to argue with Lady Firestorm. DON'T make me turn her loose!
"Nuff said. Departing the frequency. Out.
FIRELOCK76: 611 was definately a high point in my railroad career, and yes the RF&P was a great outfit to work for. I really didn't know how great until we were swallowed up. Back to the 611, she rode like a pullman. The RF&P put a 50mph speed limit on it for the excursion, no cab signals, of course, and we had to approach all hand thrown facing point switches prepared to stop. Running south on 3 track there were only three. The one regret I have is not asking to run. I was a little intimidated by the old head N&W road foreman behind the throttle. I just stood behind him and told him the lay of the railroad. He had to go after the air a little heavy a couple of times for restrictions (I think he may have been a little hard of hearing, or maybe he didn't feel like listening to some young kid barking out orders) Our road foreman was riding back in the train and commented to me later that things got a little rough back there!
Harley Earle! Now, there was a man of genius! He designed the first car to ever be designed as a whole, the 1927 LaSalle. Cars had never been styled before until he came along and the 1934 LaSalle convertible (orange with black fenders and right hand drive as it was sold new in South Africa) I saw at the Meadowbrook, Michigan classic car show is as Art Deco as it gets! For architecture, the Niagara-Mohawk power authority building in Syracuse, New York is an absolute masterpiece! Google it and prepare to be amazed!
PS
I certainly wish you and your good lady every bit of enjoyment you can possibly get from the 611.
John thanks for the sentiments. We'll be waiting with great anticipation to see what happens.
Anyone remember what was on the engineer's side of the cab during 611's last run home to Roanoke?
"I am the Thoroughbred of Steam, born to run, born to be free." And then:
"Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do!"
I don't know who on the engine crew thought to put the words of the dying Christ on the side of 611, but I'm not ashamed to admit I choked up and got teary eyed when I saw the photo, still do as a matter of fact. Whoever did it has the soul of a poet. He was probably responsible for the black flags on the front end as well.
And RF&P, that old NS engineman probably WAS a bit hard of hearing, hearing loss was an occupational hazard back in the steam era.
54Light, I took your suggestion and Googled the Niagara-Mohawk building. Oh wow. It looks like something from Fritz Lang's "Metropolis" or a set from a 30's "Flash Gordon" or "Buck Rogers" serial.
By the way, according to the article in "Steam Glory 3" when the first two Pennsy T-1's arrived on the property Pennsy enginemen nicknamed them the "Flash Gordon" and the "Buck Rogers", they were so futuristic and unlike anything the conservative PRR had ever come up with, the GG-1 notwithstanding.
Kevin,
Thanks for the pictures. They give new meaning to the idea of bullet train.
Yes, Kevin, thank you for the pictures. I have not seen a J since the fall of 1957; for three years I would go into Bristol after supper just to take in the sight of whichever J was waiting to take the Pelican to Roanoke or Monroe. From time to time, I would be warned about the shower of cinders that was going to come out of the smokestack when the engine started to move, once the train was ready for the N&W engine to be put on. I also saw the J's when I was leaving for Chattanooga on one or another of all three trains that came in from Washington. When I came in from Chattanooga, however, I did not wait to see the J, but went on out to my college (one night, as I was walking out after coming in on the Birmingham Special, two policemen stopped and asked why I was walking at that time of the morning; I told them that I had just come in on the train, and was going out to the college--and they gave me a ride the rest of the way).
I never made notes as to which engine I saw, but I do not doubt that, in all, I saw all fourteen J's.
Johnny
There are better influences that can be quoted for the 'streamline' part of Streamline Moderne -- take a look at Jaray's upright-streamlined car (if I remember correctly, he actually patented 'streamlining' in Switzerland in the early '30s) or that great theatrical designer, Norman Bel Geddes.
One thing that caused much 'merriment' at the time was the distinction between form and function. "Deco" proper was chastised for being ... well, decorative. Stuff essentially glued onto older forms, or used purely as decorative elements, rather than expressing some functionality. This was the spirit behind the Case shroudthat was put on the Commodore Vanderbilt, or the various claddings on the German high-speed steam. There for a purpose, not just an evocation.
That changed with people like Cret and Dreyfuss, who like Loewy were industrial designers involved with evoking an image of speed -- anyone here remember that wonderful painting "Rolling Power" that doesn't even need to show the shrouding and bullet nose of the Dreyfuss Hudson to evoke the spirit. Otto Kuhler, of course, did the right mix of evocation to get that spirit. Where the trouble started was when 'lesser minds' got into the idea of decorative shrouding to pretend at streamlining. My favorit 'deco' approach was the stuff on the Lackawanna -- Otto Kuhler gave me a wonderful story about how he was looking at one of those, and pretending to peer carefully under the skirts -- when asked why, he said "I was just wondering where the mechanism is to make the wings flap". Zing!!!
I must confess that when I was younger I didn't care much for the J treatment. Boiler too big and drivers too small to look particularly fast. I learned different when I learned better!
RME
Overmod ...I must confess that when I was younger I didn't care much for the J treatment. Boiler too big and drivers too small to look particularly fast. I learned different when I learned better! RME
...I must confess that when I was younger I didn't care much for the J treatment. Boiler too big and drivers too small to look particularly fast. I learned different when I learned better!
I had the same first impressions of the J. It didn't appeal to me for some reason. Then, one day...
Now I have one on my layout, and expect another as soon as Broadway Limited Imports gets them in March or April. Here's one of my favourite laout photos, if a bit fanciful.
That gal was meant to able to hike her skirts above her ankles and to do a 200 yard dash.
Crandell
Henry Dreyfuss's most famous work is what he did with John Deere from 1937-73
When I was living in Norfolk I took a ride on the 611 and when it was parked in Richmond they were letting people tour the cab. The 611 has one of those air operated firebox doors that opens when you push down the button on the cab floor with you foot. I accidentally stepped on that button and the firebox doors flung open and nearly gave me a heart attack. The crew chuckled and said they could turn the valve off but it was more amusing to see the peoples faces when they stepped on that button.
selector Overmod ...I must confess that when I was younger I didn't care much for the J treatment. Boiler too big and drivers too small to look particularly fast. I learned different when I learned better! RME I had the same first impressions of the J. It didn't appeal to me for some reason. Then, one day... Now I have one on my layout, and expect another as soon as Broadway Limited Imports gets them in March or April. Here's one of my favourite laout photos, if a bit fanciful. That gal was meant to able to hike her skirts above her ankles and to do a 200 yard dash. Crandell
Very nice scene, but those railfans watching the train on that passing siding could get them reported!!!
I took the picture below at Shaffers Crossing in 1956 with my dad watching a J move into the service facility while two K class locomotives are in the foreground.
We got to see them in action when the N&W was operating 100% mainline steam. Once you see one action, you can't forgot those locomotives and that great whistle sound.
CZ
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