British 4-6-0 in January Trains

[daveklepper]

Is this the type of locomotive commonly called a "Stainier Black 5?"

[Anonymous]

Does it look like this:

That´s a Stanier Black Five.

The London Midland and Scottish Railway's Class 5 4-6-0, almost universally known as the Black Five, is a class of steam locomotive. It was introduced by William Stanier in 1934 and 842 were built between then and 1951. Members of the class survived to the last day of steam on British Railways in 1968, and eighteen are preserved. This class of locomotive was often a favourite amongst drivers and railway fans.

he Black Fives were a mixed traffic locomotive, a "do-anything go-anywhere" type, designed by Stanier, who had previously been with the GWR. In his early LMS days, he designed his Stanier Mogul 2-6-0 in which he experimented with the GWR school of thought on locomotive design. A number of details in this design he would never use again realising the superiority of details not used on the GWR. Stanier realised that there was a need for larger locomotives. These were to be the LMS's version of the GWR Halls but not a copy, as the Hall was too wide to run most places in Britain. They shared similar cylinder arrangement (two outside), internal boiler design and size and 6 foot driving wheel diameters.

In their early days the locomotives were known as the "Black Staniers" from their black livery, in contrast to Stanier's other class of 4-6-0, the LMS Stanier Jubilee Class, which were painted crimson (and known until April 1935 as the "Red Staniers"). Later on, the nickname of the former became "Black Five", the number referring to the power classification. This was originally 5P5F, but from 1940 was shown on cabsides as the simple figure 5.

[daveklepper]

Same locomotive.   A number were also built for Palestine Railways with different accessories, including a headlight.   Your photo is terrific and so is the one in January TRAINS.

Did not this design continue to be built by British Railways after WWII?  I guess you answered that already, since the last was built in 1951, after the nationalization.     One thing in common with PRR USA practice is what I believe is a Belpair firebox.

[schlimm]

I had the pleasure of watching a restored 5MT, #45407, pulling into and later departing from Whitby, UK with restored 1940's BR coaching stock on the NYMR.  A beautiful engine, as smooth and quiet as a fine Swiss watch.

[Firelock76]

Say, has anyone noticed that with that Belpaire firebox the Black 5 looks like a British cousin of a Pennsy K4?

"I say, has anyone heard from Cousin Kay in the Colonies lately?"

[M636C]

daveklepper

Same locomotive.   A number were also built for Palestine Railways with different accessories, including a headlight.   Your photo is terrific and so is the one in January TRAINS.

Did not this design continue to be built by British Railways after WWII?  I guess you answered that already, since the last was built in 1951, after the nationalization.     One thing in common with PRR USA practice is what I believe is a Belpaire firebox.

Dave,

The locomotives used in Palestine were the very similar looking Stanier 8F 2-8-0, not the 5MT 4-6-0 illustrated here. The boiler was very slightly smaller, shorter between tubeplates but I think the same diameters at both ends of the taper.

As far as I know no Stanier 5MT ever left the UK, but hundreds of the 2-8-0s were built for the British War Department and were used in Egypt, Iran, Turkey and Palestine during WW II.

There were about the same number of both types built, around 850, but all the 4-6-0s remained in the UK while many 2-8-0s stayed overseas after WW II.

The Belpaire boiler design used in these locomotives was based on a design used in the USA by the Cooke locomotive works (later part of ALCo), and was adopted by George Churchward of the English Great Western Railway. The specific curved shape reduced stresses in the metal and reduced maintenance costs.

William Stanier was a senior engineer on the Great Western but was recruited by the LMS and brought with him many of the detail designs used on the GWR, including the design of Belpaire boiler.

M636C

[chrisjmiller]

Although the last 'Black 5' was built in 1951, the nationalised British Rail adopted and improved the LMS design for their Standard Class 5 4-6-0, 172 of which were built up to 1957.  The main difference was a higher running plate for easier maintenance.

Black 5s and the similar 2-8-0 freight locos described above were a common sight in my teenage years, as they were among the last steam engines in Britain until the end of steam in 1968.