I was ther when 611 may her final climb up Saluda. She would only climb the mountain with 5 to 6 cars. The last run up the mountain 4610 and two other NS locomotives toook the rest of the twenty cars up the mountain. The reason for dividing the train is to have plenty of braking power on the mountain to prevent a run away and run tracks were open. for safety. These are all old Southern rules of the Saluda Mountain.
Hi Feltonhill & all
First -- the aesthetics thread is re-opened . By the way I'd like to point out it was't me who asked for locking , I prefer to answer a pointed comment and for sure allow for responding to it .
( We may preferably continue this topic in this new thread , as some objected to it as a minor part of aesthetic looks as a steam loco climbs a grade with cylinders smoking - *g*)
Second -- as concerns high superheating : each level of steam pressure should be accounted for by the right amount of superheating - for best thermo-dynamic efficiency it was too low in relation to raised boiler pressure in most Super Power types . That was in respect of oil maximum acceptable temp , yet it was as much a sign of detail design not advancing according to general engine developments and in combination with low thermic insulation of cylinders and low degree of steam tightness of valve and piston rings - not limitations of Baker or Walschaert's valve gear - was largely responsible for high specific steam consumptions typical for Super Power , just as it had been in earlier locomotive types .
I had commented on superheating in my 'Chally to the Nines' thread , for ease of reading I reproduce concerning passage here - to quote myself :
"Just to make sure : my writing "From the video it might also have been paint oxidizing into carbonized form , however that should have been but a matter of some miles . " did NOT mean to say I thought it WAS paint . It could have been paint if not it was continuing at much the same rate over an extended distance . Paint usually got burnt at unprotected joints of live steam pipes to cylinders in DB steam locos having high superheating temps : standard engines at nominal ( rather decent ) steaming rates regularly ran at ~ 390°C ( 734°F ) , reaching some 410 - 420°C ( 770 - 788°F ) at mildly forced steaming rates while DB combustion chamber re-boilered engines reached 450 - 480°C ( 842 - 896°F ) as originally rebuilt , engines featuring 480 °C subsequently being cut down to some 440°C ( 824°F ) . That asked for special high quality oil for cylinders however by and large it proved of no problem as long as proper oil was supplied . While it was ok on DB , Eastern DR did experience trouble with 01.5 Pacifics also reaching some 420 - 430°C ( 788 - 806°F ) as oil-fired engines fully applied their ~ 3000 ihp potential . People who have seen DR 01.5 Pacifics in Hamburg-Altona shed ( DB ) , say DR crews from Magdeburg or ( East- ) Berlin picked up DB cylinder oil at the shed for their engines to avoid trouble . Although this was highly unofficial it was both generously supplied by DB staff and seen ( or overlooked ) with a twinkling eye by Eastern Reichsbahn officials .
I wonder oil heat resistance still was an issue in the 1980s with # 614 ...
If cylinder oil gets burnt the engine quickly starts to suffer and this will result in both valve and piston rings wearing quickly , consequently also valve liners and cylinder surface will be roughened by freezing up . After all , this means metallic surface wearing on metallic surface without an effective oil film destroying metallurgic surface structure and finish . This is about the worst of several conditions of lacking oil film ; more often it was oil film washed off by water carry over or priming . While a sudden slip can produce a heavy surge of water threatening to blow a cylinder cover or bending a main rod , even a lighter water carry over can wash oil off valve liners and cylinder surfaces , yet momentarily providing an incomplete substitute and at least avoiding excessive temperatures on these surfaces so that with some luck oil film can be re-established by feeding oil at increased rate for some time and things may be fine again . In a condition causing overheating of these surfaces more oil will only result in more carbonization finally jamming valve and piston rings and causing even more rapid and more uneven wear . If an engine had suffered this effect , even normalizing lubrication conditions after that run will not help because grooves of rings had to be cleaned of oil-carbon and likely rings will show heavy and unround wear pattern , let alone damaged surface conditions . I was told , in the final years of steam DB found steam locomotives could struggle through that and 'self-heal' by subsequent wear re-establishing more-or-less round condition and so-so surfaces of rings . Yet my engineering sense tells me , if at all , that could only work out by allowing heavy steam leakage losses during the 'self-healing' and would never come back to fully sound conditions - in other words it was only possible with excessive steaming making up for high cylinder steam consumption rates for given output - if at all full engine output was still attainable - I have my doubts about it , although steam leakage past rings intriguingly has a positive effect on draughting since there is more steam volume of also higher specific heat content through blast nozzle ( higher spec heat content since the process of leakage is a pressure reduction without work delivered and thus rises temperature of leaked steam mixing with regularly exhausted steam ) . Mind , that beyond a certain severeness of scarring or serration of rings sealing surface , high temperature steam escaping must have produced a violent high velocity stream that might as well cut further into metal thus enlarging gap . In that case no amount of extra oiling could rebuild an oil film since it was constantly being blown off , friction produces spots of overheating , contorting rings - things will only get worse the longer this engine is continued running .
Valve and piston ring lubrication was one of several design issues never adequately solved in steam locomotive development - likewise was design of these rings themselves . That wanting state had been one of several points improved in 3450 Red Devil - yet again Wardale by himself writes it was kind of a prototype design - there was no chance to develop it into full series standard level , he clearly states there was no reason why it could not have been fully developed if there had been an interest in doing so .
It’s not so much the temperature of the media passing through but really bearing surface temperature – which can be kept well below temp of media by suiting design minimizing heat load and maximizing heat discharge and by lubricant circulation , i e lubricant in a pressurized cycle is only exposed to heat a short time while flowing through bearing , taking up heat load and being re-cooled before re-entering . Another parameter is heat energy and thermal conductivity of work media – both of which are high per mass unit in superheated steam as compared to combustion gasses ; further , absolute mass of media passed through cylinders was high in steam locomotives – mind thermal efficiency of an average 300 psi / 800°F simple expansion two cylinder engine unit of a locomotive was only 12 % in the more average to 14 % in the better engines , with a thermo-dynamic efficiency typically ranging at some 67 – 75 % in the more average and in the best of realized engines ( 75 – 85 % in decently good – very good compound engines ) – all that provided a high heat load per unit of lubricated surface area of liners and cylinder walls swept by rings . At the same time , steam locomotive cylinder never had a lubricant circulation but just worked on – sorry – primitive add & consume lubrication where but a minimum of lubricant is being fed ( or else consumption would become fantastic ) and consequently lubricant cannot take up heat to cool surfaces . In contrast , pistons of diesel engines use excess oiling to cylinder walls for cooling with piston rings painstakingly designed to wipe off all but a minimum needed to maintain oil film this again so tightly hugging cylinder wall that its temperature is little higher than actual wall temp so that practically no oil gets burned by fuel combustion process . On the other hand this delicate oil film may get washed off with cold start or much worse with cranking a gasoline engine , pumping gas with lacking ignition – this sort of thing can quickly age an engine more severely than a couple of thousand miles at high speed on the highway ."
Upon viewing that video again and rewinding relevant scenes I found these oil plumes came in short bursts from time to time . This and the fact that most of lube oil burnt would really go with steam and not appear outsides the cylinder - except for that part of lube oil burnt from piston rod and valve rod , where valve rod end is from exhaust chamber with but uncritical steam temp - would point to a different source for these emissions of oil smoke . I don't have detailed knowledge of this locomotive's oiling system , only I have checked and seen on photos lubricating pump is mounted backwards near left cylinder and somewhat higher than steam chest . That makes me wonder if not there was an oil leak between lubrication pump and cylinder which allowed oil to drip or squirt on hot live steam part of steam chest and was going up in smoke there as oil in a frying pan . This would explain both point of origin and intermittent emission of this oil smoke . That wouldn't say there wasn't - also - oil burnt inside the cylinder as it wouldn't preclude damage was at least partly caused by lack of lubrication as much as by burning .
As things were , high temp oil , if expensive , might have been less costly in the end ...
Saludos
= J =
Gentlemen; I apolgise. I read to fast as to the numbers of the engines. I soon saw my mistake after I posted. Thank you for setting this old hide straight.
Respectfully, Cannonball
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
feltonhill The blue smoke evident in the 614 video obviously indicates that the steam temp was very hot. My estimate would be closer to 750 deg, still splitting hairs. The total steam temp was way up there under such conditions of being likely overfired, working at forced draft, and having flue gas temperatures in the stratosphere. We need more information regarding the tolerance of current hi-temp oils to such temperatures. Anyone have this?
The blue smoke evident in the 614 video obviously indicates that the steam temp was very hot. My estimate would be closer to 750 deg, still splitting hairs. The total steam temp was way up there under such conditions of being likely overfired, working at forced draft, and having flue gas temperatures in the stratosphere. We need more information regarding the tolerance of current hi-temp oils to such temperatures. Anyone have this?
The C&O 614 often produces steam temperatures well in excess of 800 degrees F. I was present at the ACE testing, and I recall temps as high as 810 F to 820 F. These temps were also reached in many of the Safety Express Excursions, especially on the difficult B&O routes. The 614's boiler design produces a lot of very hot superheated steam.
There are synthetic oils that can withstand such temperatures available. We looked into this back in the 1980's with Ross, but considering how much lube a typical steam engine goes through on a run, the cost would have been excessively high.
One idea to get around this was to shorten the 614's superheaters to lower the temperature, and raise the operating pressure to get an equal power output, but CSX pulled the plug on steam excursions before this could be looked into.
On test, the N&W J's operated at a superheat of about 275-280 deg, a total steam temp of about 700 deg. This was in normal road service and was not the result of overfiring or other uneconomical measures. n It is a sustainable figure. For 614 to have a total steam temp about 800 deg would require a superheat of about 400 deg, something I've never seen documented or otherwise achieved. The highest test figures I've found were 381 deg superheat for a PRR T1 at 76 mph, almost exactly 800 deg total steam temp.
switch7frg feltonhill, did the hogger really scorch the cylinders and rings with that 800 deg. super heated steam?? There was a good amount of blue smoke coming from there. Was the narrator " blowing smoke" ?? What an abuse of that engine. Respectfully, Cannonball
feltonhill, did the hogger really scorch the cylinders and rings with that 800 deg. super heated steam?? There was a good amount of blue smoke coming from there. Was the narrator " blowing smoke" ?? What an abuse of that engine.
What engine are you asking about? The N&W 611 never operated with 800 degree steam. If I recall right, the 611 steam temperature was around 670 - 690 degrees F.
Are you are asking about the video of the C&O 614 going up the 17 Mile Grade, blowing blue smoke off the front end? That was the result of Ross Rowland burning up the lubricating oil with the 614's superheated steam, which reached well over 800 degrees F, and yes it was damaging the valves and cylinders. The C&O J3a class had a history of doing this even when they were new in the late 1940's.
The 611 didn't have the adhesion to use its tractive effort effectively, the 614 did, but could scorch its vales and cylinders in the process. Like I said, there was no such thing as the "perfect" steam locomotive.
....In the video I watched of 611 on the "hill"....and stalling....I didn't have a chance to count the passenger cars behind it.
But 5 or 6 cars certainly seems more reasonabble to me for that engine being able to start from "0" on the hill and move on up to Summit at Saluda. Still an awesome task in my opinion.
As I've said before...That doesn't even look like a railroad when standing there looking "down" that grade....!
Quentin
Nothing like a locked thread to liven things up.
611 pulled about five cars up Saluda, nowhere near 18. Stalled once and started right up again. May have been intentional, maybe not.
Saluda is something like 4.7%, perhaps compensated. It's very steep, you can easily see it. Watch any number of vids on youtube about this. Count the cars so there'll be no doubt.
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