My
original comment was only meant to answer an actual case in question and by purpose I kept it simple for that . Those who want more information on the actual standard European classification system may take a look at Wikipedia , this-here site : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_arrangement ( text obviously translated vrromm ze Gerrmann version ) :
Hi Ulrich
The cypher and letter system has first been put up in 1908 , in 1932 it got refined by VMEV (Association of Mid-European railway authorities) and was later adopted by UIC . The codex contains quite number of signs for special arrangements and drives , yet it spite of some indication marks for radially inscribing axles , it fails to denote some configurations such as the Krauss-Helmholtz bogie combining leading radial axle and leading lateral motion coupled axle ; likewise , while bigger radially inscribing chassis parts of a vehicle are to be denoted in brackets , it does not define the way in which these chassis are made radially inscribing , say – as a pivoted unit as for example in fully bogie suspended units , such as a modern powered bogies loco , electric Crocodile , Meyer , Garratt or – as a linked unit such as in a Mallet articulated and related . This is why in my incredible casualness I have long since decided to drop these signs of bureaucracy ( that aren’t spoken anyways ) and simply trust a reader’s imagination . So , instead of a 2-8-8-2 ( Whyte ) becoming a (1’D)D1’ ( UIC ) , I simply write 1DD1 – I think nobody will take it as a rigid frame Duplex with fixed idler axles .
Well , there would be more to it :
For instance , there are contradictions like with tank and tender engines : in the first case key denots full vehicle w/a , in the second case a vital part of the vehicle as in complete working order is usually ignored , although it can be added and some conscientious steam tech individuals do so . More questionable UIC notation would get with odd types such as the eerie Triplex : that would-be a (1’D)D(D1’) – which clearly it was not because the last section in the key without specification denotes not a part of the engine proper but w/a of the tender , while usually tender is ignored in UIC system same as in Whyte system .
Shall we open up a new thread about 'Classification systems of railway locomotive wheel arrangements' ?
Regards
Juniatha
Just to add a little to the confusion:
The Brits use the same denoting as you folks in the Americas
The Germans do things completely different than the French and the Brits. A 4-6-2 is a 2´C1´, a Decapod a 1´E, a Mikado a 1´D 1´ a.s.f.
The Swiss do it neither the German, nor the French or the British way. A Tenwheeler is a A 3/5, the famous Gotthard Decapod is a C 5/6. The letters stand for speed classes.
Confused?
Samfp1943 - quote :
>> A 'Mountain' STYLE 4-8-2 .(or whatever the french call their Whyte-system designation for a 4-8-2) <<
The old French w/a denoting system was actually quite simple : basically it was our’s divided by 2 as it counted axles not wheels – which is not completely without a point since in railroading vehicles wheels usually happen to come in pairs . ( while our classification provides a vaguely theoretical possibility of describing , say , a 4-6-1 an engine in this configuration would appear somewhat unhappy and likely less than fully prepared for mainline service )
So , as for a Mountain type 4-8-2 you would count 241 (unhyphenated) in Europe – which appears only fair since wheel loads in heaviest American steam almost equalled axle loads on elder European steam .
Let’s do some more practice :
An American 2-6-2 is considered a 131 in Europe – easy ;
a European 232 makes for American 4-6-4 – alright ;
an American 2-10-2 makes for European 151 – or Lorraine Type since Santa Fe would sound a bit far fetched on the Old Continent .
Further , European 141 makes for American 2-8-2 – the renown Mike , right ?
.. whereas a 282 in Europa would be a 4-16-4 – or rather 4-8-8-4 , that sounds more familiar – while again that would make for a 2442 in Europe which must not be confused with a 2-4-4-2 or else we’ll come stumbling back to the Mike , only in a Duplex configuration .
The famous Pennsy 4-4-4-4 Duplex would transcribe as 2222 in Europe which we should never-ever mistake as 2-2-2-2 lest we would get cought in a vortex to be rushed back into the times of old Single Driver 4-2-2 engines and the like . And , honestly , who would like that to happen ?
Although .. well , that’s another story ! (see Fred’s blog ‘Midnight in Paris’ and comments) Regards
Although .. well , that’s another story ! (see Fred’s blog ‘Midnight in Paris’ and comments)
CSSHEGEWISCH I don't mean to be a nitpicker but 241P-17 is a 4-8-2. The only French 4-8-4 of which I'm aware is Chapelon's experimental 242A-1.
I don't mean to be a nitpicker but 241P-17 is a 4-8-2. The only French 4-8-4 of which I'm aware is Chapelon's experimental 242A-1.
Thanks, Paul! Got it fixed.
See my earlier post for a translation of the entire article.
I got this from the 241P17 website.
http://www.241p17.com/
on home page, click "entrez" (plate under cab at trailer truck)
on next page, click "les actualites" (third item on left side of screen.
I used Google translate to get the basics and tried to fix some of the phraseology and awkward word choices.
Thanks, Feltonhill!
That was pretty much what I was hoping for, My French really sucks, so the translation was really appreciated.
It is really good to hear that the injured are at least recovering and out of the hospital. Particularly, in light of the potential circumstances related by Kootenay Central. Hopefully they will all be able to recover without any major lasting effects.
I would also hope that the restoration Group can make repairs to the 241P17. It is a beautiful example of A 'Mountain' STYLE 4-8-2 .(or whatever the french call their Whyte-system designation for a 4-8-2)
It would be a shame to see it end in such an ignominious fashion. Hopefully they will be ale to put it back in satisfactory running condition.
Thanks, again Feltonhill and Kootenay Central for your info!
[EDIT to Correct Loco type, and Whyte nomenclature] samfp
,
Edited 9/27/11 - This is the entire press release. I'm not an expert translator, just an interested amateur. A few of the phrases were beyond my ability (and are so noted), probably because they are terms-of-art or very idiomatic. Anyway, it proves that railroad crews everywhere are ready to carry out their jobs under the worst possible conditions.
Press Release from Serge Chevalier, President of CFCFollowing the accident involving 241P17 on 28 August 2011, I wish to bring the following items to your attention.Yann Janaudy, technical manager of 241P17 and engineer is progressing well and is in good spirits. He still remains hospitalized but is expected to leave the hospital within the next few days. He should have no lasting after-effects.I would like to point out that five of the injured were released the same evening at the hospital in Chambéry, another 29/08, and another 30/08. The members of the train crew hospitalized at St. Luke in Lyon were released on 31/08. This satisfactory outcome for the men is a huge relief for all of us, despite the seriousness of the event.Because my colleagues and I are in favor of CFC transparency, here are the facts. The train was carrying over 400 people between Le Creusot and Aix les Bains. On arrival at the station at Aix, the engine was uncoupled from the train, heading in the direction of Montmélian, so it could be turned and serviced. In accordance with careful planning, only those assigned to technical tasks boarded the locomotive (2 engineers, 2 firemen and 5 technicians). A Montmélian, only the engineers and fireman remained on board the locomotive during the turning operation. Maintenance operations took place normally, the "fire in the morning" [literal of “feu du matin”, probably a term of art, no good translation found] was shaken, the grate cleaned, and the engine refired. The smokebox was opened for inspection and no anomalies or suspicious noises were detected. I even have the testimony of the SNCF security manager who assured me he had seen the crew concentrating on its duties.4:03 p.m.. Yann SMS told me that all was well and they returned to Aix les Bains. A few minutes later the accident occurred, a sudden and violent projection of water vapor in the cab.Despite the painful injuries and a crisis situation:- brakes were applied and the locomotive was stopped- a rescue call [equivalent of 911] was sent out by a injured crew member using his laptop, allowing first responders to make a quick arrival on the scene.- the operating crew, although seriously injured, stuck to its job by preventing locomotive movement [loose translation of “en prevenant la regulation”] in order to secure the line. [I’m not sure this sentence is accurate. Juniatha, any ideas?]From Aix, we managed the situation in an orderly manner, assessing the condition of the injured and making initial contacts for alternative transportation of the 400 passengers. Thanks to SNCF’s quick action, a solution was found, and the passengers were able to board a TGV which made a special stop at Le Creusot TGV. Our car hosts [free translation of “equipe voyageurs”] were certain this change would work. At Le Creusot, CFC, along with the Mayor of Le Creusot organized shuttle buses to meet the TGV.I will not describe the experience of the end of the day but I want to express sincere gratitude to the association APMFS Chambery for their solidarity, material assistance they provided, and also their support and comfort. An expert evaluation was held on September 9. The cause of the accident was the sudden break, covering three-quarters of the circumference, of a small fire-tube at the bottom and slightly to the left side of the rear tube sheet. The rupture occurred at about 1 cm from the tube sheet. The final conclusions of the investigation will not be known until later.Finally, I would like to emphasize the tremendous outpouring of solidarity and the many expressions of sympathy. SNCF and its representatives, the police, rescue teams, and firefighters were great. The City Council of Le Creusot and its effective intervention for charter buses to the Le Creusot TGV station was highly appreciated by everyone. The active support of UNECTO with its president Louis Poix and Maurice Testu whose impressive effectiveness was invaluable. The friendly call from Josiane Beaud, Regional Director SNCF Lyon, was a great help.Many challenges lie ahead, but considering all of the expressions of sympathy and encouragement, I am convinced that the history of 241P17 will not stop on August 28, 2011.
It has been almost a month since this accident occurred on the 241P-17.
Do any Posters here have any further information on the conditions of the injured people?
Apparently, the restoration was a labor of love for those involved and based on what has been written, the members of the clubdoing the work were very dedicated to their project.
It would be great to hear that all injured were doing well, and on the road to recovery.
Hopefully, the club restoration can make repairs and overcome this mechanical set back on the 241P-17?
Any news would be welcome here!
I will not participate in any further speculation about the incident – just a technical information :
The fireboxes of SNCF standard post-war steam loco types were fully welded steel boxes ( the shell was riveted as you can see ) . Circulator tubes ( 241.P ) or Nicholson thermic syphons ( 242.A.1 ) were welded in to the inner firebox sheets at front and back or ceiling respectively . With due engineering wisdom washout plugs for these were inserted in the outer throat plate , not in the boiler back plate .
See below : simplified sectional side elevation of 241.P series.
= J =
from article in Glaser’s Annalen , Sept 1949 ,
Dipl. Ing. A. Wolff : Neue 2D1-h4v-Schnellzug-Lokomotiven , Serie 241.P der SNCF
Unlike thermic syphons, which link the rear tubeplate to the upper firebox water space on the crown sheet, arch tubes physically penetrate both the inner and outer firebox near the top of the boiler. This is necessary to allow replacement of the arch tubes. The upper tube end is sealed off but the section of tube between the inner and outer fireboxes is perforated or slotted to allow the heated water to join the boiler water at the rear upper firebox water leg.
If the seal on an arch tube failed it would fill the cab with high pressure steam in the area described.
That sounds the simplest possibility to cause the described problem.
M636C
As far as I know , the 241.P didn’t have Thermo Syphons , just arch tubes to support the brick arch which – typically with stoker fired engines – was long .
I wished we would agree to keep a bit of a low profile in that respect , some journalists are quick to make fuss writing of ‘a boiler explosion’ . Such irresponsible yellow journalism might just add up to troubles . As a matter of fact , bad as the incident was for the injured , the boiler held together very well .
= J=
>> Orders were boiling and elusive <<
If only some orders could be boiled away .. *g*
Les commandes étaient bouillantes et insaisissables.
The controls were boiling hot and untouchable.
(insaisissable – untouchable, cannot be gripped / [par ext] unreachable / [fig] intangible, inconceivable, unfathomable / [jur] unseizable // différence insaisissable – inconceivably small difference.
In the latest news creusot-info
http://www.creusot-infos.com/article.php?sid=30075&thold=0
the driver said it was not theboiler but a “tuyau”, quote :
>> Yann Janaudy, qui connaît parfaitement bien la machine, pour avoir été le maître d'œuvre de la réhabilitation et de sa rénovation, est que les projections de vapeur seraient sans doute venues, non pas de la chaudière de la 241P17, mais plutôt sûrement d'un tuyau qui se serait brisé, libérant la vapeur sous pression, à plus de 15 bars. <<
(tuyau – pipe, tube)
By the direction of the escaping steam / hot water I would be inclined to consider it might possibly have been a steam supply to auxiliaries / to the steam turret rather than a flue inside the boiler barrel since , while that would sure have produced a formidable outburst of steam , with fire door closed it would not instantaneously have struck people on the footplate that badly and that directly ; in case the firebox unfortunately was open at that instance , it would likely have worst affected those standing in the middle of the cab . It seems to have been something that could not be shut off manually , if perhaps just because no-one could reach into the inferno of hot steam , thus steam pressure had to bleed out completely – to note : on the pictures there is no trace of hot gas rising from the chimney , seems like the fire brigade put the fire out in the firebox – with an aching “Merci” from the boiler !
We’ll see …
Regards , avec mes sentiments les meilleurs pour de bon rétablissement aux blessés
What I have heard is that a crack developed in a Thermic Syphon. Whether the crack was from a failed weld in the syphon or just failed metal through embrittlement I don't know.
Here's another link with a 3-page discussion in english with links to original french sources.
http://railways.national-preservation.com/showthread.php/32449-241P17-Severe-Accident
The most recent information is on page 3. An interview with the engineer seems to point to a failed boiler tube.
For those who get a chuckle from "mechanical" translations, one phrase was particularly interesting. The original was (in reference to applying the brakes ) -
Les commandes etaient bouillantes et insaisissables.
Translation was -
Orders were boiling and elusive.
IMO, it should read something like -
The controls were very hot and slippery.
In spite of occasional funny stuff like this, Google and others translation sites are still much much better than they were even two years ago.
Only after posting I've realised I've switched the positions of engineer and fireman. It's engineer left and fireman right, Iy had to be lije thar sinnce most french rail lines are left hand railroads, with the notable exceptions being the Alsace and Loraine regions
Before anything else
let me say my sincerest feelings are with those struck by hard fate in the wake of hurricane ‘Irene’ having passed up the East Coast !
_________________
Concerning the incident of Sunday August 28 th with 241.P.17 – ‘La Grosse P’ or SNCF standard 4-8-2 operated by a club that restored this locomotive to working order at its original builder’s plant Cie Schneider at LeCreusot between 2000 – 2007 . It appears the locomotive was going light engine through a loop for turning when a steam blow out occurred , apparently at some auxiliary unit .
Some links to info sites and translation below:
General information on the 241.P four cylinder compound Mountain type of locomotive :
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/materiel/locs/241p30_d.html
241.P information on loco , principal data and simple side elevation drawing, scroll down for some info on 241.P.17 restored at LeCreusot from 2000 to 2007 and .30 placed as monument at Vallorbe and since retrieved and transported to St Sulpice, Switzerland
From the photo gallery, some pictures in chronological order :
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p_1963_paris-est_guy-laforgerie.jpg
241.P in Paris-Est station in 1963 , ready to depart with train #9 Alpenrose Express
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/materiel/locs/241p_241c.html
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/materiel/locs/241p_construction.html
Construction of the 241.P.1 - .35 Uhh , I just see , there is an elevated view at construction site with 241.P chassis and boiler , showing in fact a steam turret on top of the boiler near the back end – the thing that could have caused the trouble , see my text below . The smaller photos below that , left : the composite crank axle of the 241.P series ; right ( man standing on cylinder ) : this is a 141.P Mikado - they had hp cylinders outsides , see small diameter , and part of the receiver above the steam chest that combines hp outsides exhaust for lp admission at mid steam chest .
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p_lille-posteb_yves-broncard.jpg
Leaving Lille with cylinder cocks open , train 324 to Paris
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p3_faucille-de-villeneuve_vdr-felix-fenino.jpg
241.P.3 passing ‘the crescent of Villeneuve’ going to Paris with the Rome Express night train
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p_moret_tournage_paris-lyon_guy-rannou.jpg
three 241.P are turned on the triangle at Moret ( turn table too short at this last stand of these engines before end of steam )
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p30_thouare-sur-loire_reg-nantaise_walter-hofer.jpg
The 241.P didn’t escape usual degrading of steam passenger power to freight service during Late Hour steam traction : 241.P.30 then of LeMans shed heading a fast freight towards Angers , passing through Thouaré-sur-loire ( Nantes region )
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p21_1969-07_cannibalisee_pieces_jean-louis-poggi.jpg
241.P at Chaumond steam shed used for taking spare parts in the final hour of steam – btw , since we are at it : although parly hidden with remnants of insulation material , this picture shows steam passages of straight conduct and generous size between steam chest and cylinder typical of these and other later type compound engines – you may compare this to cylinders of comparable size on our large locomotive types and you get an idea of one reason why in general specific steam consumption was significantly higher in our engines
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p9_1974-09-17_bordeaux_jean-louis-poggi.jpg
last time in steam years after steam had ended on SNCF : 241-P-9, on september 17 , 1974 , at Bordeaux engine facility , starting last last journey to Guîtres
On the incident of August 28 th with 241.P.17 :
http://www.ledauphine.com/savoie/2011/08/28/l-accident-de-locomotive-en-images?image=4798B3AA-60CB-4C3F-8A84-C2ED4C23F8AE#galery
news on Le Dauphine covering the accident
http://www.ledauphine.com/savoie/2011/08/28/accident-ferroviaire-avec-une-locomotive-a-vapeur-trois-blesses-graves?image=08037034-a5e1-4a49-badd-e4d69cca4150#galery
interview with the chief of the fire brigade ( if you can make the video work – I couldn’t )
http://www.creusot-infos.com/article.php?sid=30045&thold=0
the accident reported on Le Creusot info
http://www.passion-metrique.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6134
Metre gauge fan forum – as usual there are twice as many opinions as participants , blended with a fair amount of .. er-hm .
On the Creusot-infos site, in the text below the photo “La locomotive a été acheminée à la Rotonde de Chambéry” , third paragraph , I felt limitations of my understanding of French when reading the sentence :
>>Alors qu'elle s'était rendue à Montmélian pour changer de sens de marche, alors qu'elle était en circulation, la locomotive au-dessus de sa cabine, par le foyer de chauffe de la chaudière, a vu arriver une énorme quantité de vapeur.<<
and thus I was amused to read that even French couldn’t make more of it , see meter gauge forum , second page , first comment by William Jones , to quote :
>> Dans ce texte, il y a un truc que je ne pige pas : "Alors qu'elle s'était rendue à Montmélian pour changer de sens de marche, alors qu'elle était en circulation, la locomotive au-dessus de sa cabine, par le foyer de chauffe de la chaudière, a vu arriver une énorme quantité de vapeur".
Comment "une énorme quantité de vapeur" peut-elle arriver au-dessus de la cabine, par le foyer de chauffe ? <<
Translated : « In this text there is a thing that I don’t get : " Now , as she was transferred to Montmélian to change direction of travel [turn around] , as she was on the circulation [on the loop] , the locomotive above her cab , through the firebox of the boiler , has had an enormous quantity of steam arrive " How could “an enormous quantity of steam” arrive above the cab through the firebox ? »
That’s what I had wondered about – however given the renown ‘génialité français’ I was prepared to consider my straight-forward American ‘simple expansion’ thinking was perhaps inadequate to imagine a firebox above the cab of a steam locomotive , but alas , to my relieve it is ‘au dessus’ French thinking as well . I guess it’s just illustrative of wild imaginations journalists internationally seem to have of ‘old steam monsters on rails’ .
From what little information transpired – the club seems to be somewhat restricted with information – I tend to think it could either have been a broken water gauge or a rupture of steam turret on top of the boiler back , which apparently is situated in the triangular space formed by the wind cutting front and roof of the cab . If used for a turret this space I should expect this space was isolated from the cab interior – however I don’t know exactly how cabs were mounted on frames and / or to boiler ( when at Mulhouse and – illegally – climbing into the cab of 241.P.16 I never thought of that ) and so don’t know if the ledge separating this space from the cab has been welded to the roof and the boiler cladding – if welded just to the roof and contouring the boiler cladding without fixation then it could have been bent open in the event of 290 psi steam pressure blowing ( full b p SNCF standard types / or 250 as it was said to have been presently ? ) ; it would be hard to think of such a basic mistake in original construction of these locomotives , however I wouldn’t rule it out in a restoration work . Other comments consider a ruptured water gauge or a collapsed flue ( likely a super heater element could not have blown that much of steam ) but that could only have had disastrous effects in the cab with firebox door open , not impossible but relatively unlikely with a stoker fired engine , that would most severely have struck those standing in the middle of the cab .
There had been ten people in the cab when the blow out happened and this is a major focus of discussion going on in that meter gauge forum , they are expecting there will be regulations enforced to limit the number of people on board a steam locomotive to six – gee , in Germany they would be ventilating zero people on board a locomotive when in steam , thereby killing steam trips through the back door ! There is information that two were seriously scalded , one of those being the driver ( Yann Janaudy , see photo on LeCreusot info site , left side in these locos ) who suffered bad scaldings of face (ooouch!) and upper part of body , still had the nerve to stop the locomotive – latest news from the hospital say he’s out of immediate danger but I’m afraid it will take some time to get well again from such a mishap . Well , hopefully he had his goggles on ( since this was a slow speed turn-around trip he might have had them shifted up ) . From comments in the meter gauge forum :
>> J'ai fait partie des "rapatriés" sur Bourg par le TGV de 19h10 (Aix, Bourg 20h10) qui faisait ensuite un arrêt normal à Mâcon (avec transfert sur Mâcon Centre) puis un arrêt exceptionnel au Creusot, avec transferts vers Chalon, Tournus et Chagny). La SNCF a été, tant à Aix qu'au Centre opérationnel (national), d'une rapidité et efficacité remarquables. Merci à Frédéric d'avoir envoyé un "petit mot" au président Chevalier au nom de B1601. <<
The user comments that SNCF have reacted rapidly and effectively ; further information said , the line had been blocked both ways and current cut off , passengers had been redirected on board of a TGV and brought to LeCreusot station making an unscheduled stop , from there by busses to their final destination . Electrification wire at the site was being checked for damage ( that seems to indicate the steam blowout was somewhere at the top of the boiler ) and then energized again .
>> Pour répondre a William Johnes c'est bien ce qui s'est produit une rupture au niveau de la nourrice. Cet accident va probablement être très long sur le plan physique pour les blesses et juridiquement. Le cadre SNCF risque une mise en examen pour avoir autorisé autant de personnnes sur la machine.
Il est aussi bizard de constater que la machine ne pouvait avant l accident rentrer dans la rotonde de Chambery et qu'après ce n'était plus un problème. ??????? Puisque la machine est sous scellés dans la rotonde.
Le pronostique vital du mécanicien n'est plus engagé ce qui n'etait pas pas le cas dimanche. Nous ne pouvons que lui souhaité de se remettre au plus vite et saluer son courrage pour avoir arrêté la machine. <<
( adding to our difficulties with la langue français : many French themselves make grammatical mistakes – *g* ) This user comments it’s well possible that there was a rupture “in the vicinity” ( as he puts it ) of the steam turret , remarking the SNCF staff will risk a considerable investigation about how it was possible so many people were authorized to travel the cab . The locomotive had eventually been pulled into Chambery rotonde , the user wonders “it’s bizarre that before the accident the locomotive was not allowed there while now suddenly it is without any problem” – well , that’s an example of the mysterious and absolute powers of authorities in France that stand in stark contrast to our general ideas of France . In the last paragraph he wishes the driver a “quick recovering and regaining of his enthusiasm for steam” – well I hope so , yet wonder if the latter will come true .
With best wishes for a good recovery of the persons scalded , especially for the driver , and hoping for 241.P.17 to return in good repair –
so long
( by request this is a copy of my comment in the 'aesthetics thread' ; with added remark on photo showing 141.P under construction )
Blow back, AFAIK, has to do with the fire. Sometimes if you have a hot fire and dont have the blower on, when you open the butterfly doors all the gasses and smoke will burst back at you.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
The 241P's cab arrangement is engineer left, fireman right when standing in the cab facing forward, opposite U.S. configuration. French railroads also operate "left-handed" compared to U.S. roads.
For those who are interested in photos of these racy-looking locos, you can put
sncf 241P pictures, or sncf 241P17 pictures
in google.
Fist time I'm hearing about this.
In terms of dimesniosns it is really one of the biggest, if not the biggest steam engine cyurrently operational in Europe, with pssibly having just a competitor, broad gauge Renfe242F2009, that is technically operational, but since it's repairs in Lerida works hasn´t been moving much ever since,
As a ckue for the origin of the mishap. It really seems to be some sort of leak. The probbleam was that it happened wether in the cab, right side (that's where the engineer works on thoes engines), and it was maybe unexoected, because the volunteer tem that works 241P17 is realyy, really attentiveto everything (at every stop every sensible point is triple checked or beter). That´s maybe one of the reasons to have so many people in the foot plate. every time the loco cames out there´ss an army of volunteers with it
I've been following this for the past few days and from what I can find (I used to be pretty good at reading railroad French, but not so hot any more), there's been considerable commentary on UK and French discussion boards. Apparently the word "explosion" in early accounts was exaggerated. Later accounts and commentary seem to focus around a problem with a boiler tube or flue, pipe in the cab, or perhaps a "manifold" (depending on how you translate "tubulure"). This may have something to do with the turret, which is mounted on top of he boiler inside the pointed portion of the roof. Also, the translation of one of the above-cited links skips over the word "niveau", which means level, or may indicate a gauge to measure a fluid level, perhaps a sight glass. All of this is speculation on my part, no special insight.
On the French sites, the complaints about the press not knowing anything about the railroad or locomotive and publishing a lot of nonsense, sound the same as our opinions about newspaper articles here in the US!
I'm very interested to see what the problem was, and also why there were 10 people in the cab. A 241P cab would be crowded with half that number!
Beautiful locomotive, terrible event.
I wouldn't expect steam, but very hot water under pressure that would find holes or fissures, and it would immediately sublimate to steam in the tube. Much the same effect, though.
In any event, I thought blow-back is a term to mean firebox gasses and/or flames entering the cab.
http://www.railway-technical.com/st-glos.shtml
http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/070130_R042007_Grosmont.pdf
Crandell
This kind of accident typically happens when a boiler tube fails or has a crack in it. The steam from the boiler shoots through the tube, into the firebox, and then into the cab. UP 844 had a similar instance happen in California a while back that filled the cab with steam but nobody was injured.
As you can imagine depending on the size of the crack it can really let loose a lot of steam. I am not sure that is what happened in this accident but it sounds like it.
Actually, it was the Gettysburg Railroad that had the boiler failure. I say failure instead of explosion because fortunately the way the ex-Canadian Pacific locomotives firebox was designed and built when the crown sheet failed it "peeled" away from the staybolts releasing the pressure. This is NOT to say the enginemen weren't seriously injured, they certainly were.
Possibly someone else on the Forum has more info on this, but as I understand it the main cause of the failure was sloppy maintainance, also a clogged sight glass that gave a faulty reading of how much water was in the boiler. At any rate it led to the rigid requirements for steam operation and maintanance on the books now.
I'd definately like to hear more about the French incident, and while we're at it let's say a prayer or two for the speedy recovery of those involved.
Intriguing story from the TRAINS Newswire of 31 August 2011
Headline from article: "Two injured in French steam locomotive accident"
FTA:"...LA RAVOIRE, France – Two people suffered serious burns Aug. 28 when steam was released into the cab of former SNCF 4-8-2 No. 241P-17, Ledauphine.com reports..."
Further FTA: "...The two most seriously injured were the engineer and an SNCF technician. The locomotive was being turned before returning to Aix les Bains for its return passenger trip. The engine is currently in the Chambery depot while investigations continue..."
Accidents are not too common with these older steam locomotives So I was interested in how this had happened. According to the article,"steam was released into the cab of the 241P-17, injuring the fireman and a 'technician from SCNF' (?)"
This was no ordinary locomotive it was a large 4-8-2 ( said to be one of the largest, operational steam engines in Europe), and was recently outshopped after a renovation that took 13 years.
Curious I checked out the link mentioned in the story : http://www.ledauphine.com/
Link to article (is in French/ with pictures):
http://www.ledauphine.com/savoie/2011/08/28/l-accident-de-locomotive-en-images
Requested a Google translation, and got the article with some photos of the Steam engine. It looked pretty good, and was definitely not catastrophically damaged externally. ( see photo)
Strangely, this was the information from the translation of the link : (DELETED COPYWRITE Material to comply with Forum rules--samfp1943)
"There were Ten people in the Cab while the locomotive was being turned for its return trip!" WITH ALL TEN BEING INJURED (Burned/scalded(?) Two seriously. Amazing!
There have to be more details to this story.
Apparently the nature of the problem that injured the crew, and individuals riding in the cab of the SCNF 241P17 was a "BLOW BACK" .Personally, I am not familiar with that term. Maybe someone else could provide that information as to what and how a Blow Back occurs. [The photos I saw appeared to show little in the way of external cab damage.]
Hopefully, all those injured on the Locomotive will recover.
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