NKP 765

[JoeKoh]

get ready to see her as she comes to the CVS in akron next month and a fall foilage tour in owosso mich in oct.765.org for details.

stay safe

joe

[Firelock76]

Thanks, Big Jim forclearing that up.

[BigJim]

Firelock76

This is an interesting discussion.  The last time I saw the Norfolk and Westerns  mighty 611 was in 1994 in Petersburg Va.  One of the lead truck wheels had a device straddling the flange that looked like a miniature disc brake caliper. 

That is a flange oiler.

Drawings: C46907 & E46338

[Firelock76]

This is an interesting discussion.  The last time I saw the Norfolk and Westerns  mighty 611 was in 1994 in Petersburg Va.  One of the lead truck wheels had a device straddling the flange that looked like a miniature disc brake caliper.  I wondered what it was at the time, now I suspect I was looking at one of those  "Silent Watchman" devices you folks have been talking about.

[feltonhill]

I looked at both of the above referenced drawings this past weekend.  They both show an application of the device.  I believe that NW-C36447 would be a better choice to show the installation on the lead truck of the Y6/Y6a/Y6b classes.  Full size prints of this drawing are available from the N&W Historical Society commissary (price about $4.25 each plus shipping as best I can determine).

[samfp1943]

It is kind of an interesting device. And it seems was subject of several Court actions from time to time. 

[ from the link]: "...This enactment has been much considered. Baltimore & Ohio R. Co. v. Groeger, 266 U.S. 521 , 45 S.Ct. 169; Napier v. Atlantic Coast Line R. Co., 272 U.S. 605 , 47 S.Ct. 207; United States v. Baltimore & Ohio R. Co., 293 U.S. 454 , 55 S.Ct. 268. But we have not heretofore undertaken to give definite interpretation to the words 'parts and appurtenances..."

The following is specific to the link Krokodil mentioned in regards to the USAToday article.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=297&invol=398&friend=usatoday

referencing:         U.S. Supreme Court

SOUTHERN RY. CO. v. LUNSFORD, 297 U.S. 398 (1936)

FTA: "...A mechanism, known as 'Wright's Little Watchman,' fastened beneath the locomotive frame, carried a valve closing an entrance into the air line actuated by a lever or trigger. A pull on this would open the valve, let out [297 U.S. 398, 400]   air, and thus set the brakes. The lever was connected with the forward truck; if its wheels left the track and fell five inches or more, a downward pull was expected.

Newly constructed locmotives carry no Watchman; they are not in common use. Petitioner buys and applies them; has experimented with them for seven years; nearly all of its passenger locomotives carry them. The device is not regarded as an essential or integral part. The carrier's general superintendent testified without contradiction: 'The use of this device cannot possibly endanger the operation of the train. It is used in the hope that it may apply the brakes and stop the train in event of derailment of front trucks. My experience with this device is that it sometimes works and sometimes will not work, and that it cannot be relied upon with any degree of certainty.' ; sometimes it had proved effective, sometimes it disappointed. Notwithstanding use Both witnesses who spoke to the point asserted that it was in an experimental stage; was being tried out with the hope of securing good resultsduring seven years, it remained experimental..."

(Emphasis is added by Samfp)

The court case is an interesting read, apparently Wright's device was tried, but with mixed results(?)

[samfp1943]

It is kind of an interesting device. And it seems was subject of several Court actions from time to time. 

[ from the link]: "...This enactment has been much considered. Baltimore & Ohio R. Co. v. Groeger, 266 U.S. 521 , 45 S.Ct. 169; Napier v. Atlantic Coast Line R. Co., 272 U.S. 605 , 47 S.Ct. 207; United States v. Baltimore & Ohio R. Co., 293 U.S. 454 , 55 S.Ct. 268. But we have not heretofore undertaken to give definite interpretation to the words 'parts and appurtenances..."

The following is specific to the link Krokodil mentioned in regards to the USAToday article.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=297&invol=398&friend=usatoday

referencing:         U.S. Supreme Court

SOUTHERN RY. CO. v. LUNSFORD, 297 U.S. 398 (1936)

FTA: "...A mechanism, known as 'Wright's Little Watchman,' fastened beneath the locomotive frame, carried a valve closing an entrance into the air line actuated by a lever or trigger. A pull on this would open the valve, let out [297 U.S. 398, 400]   air, and thus set the brakes. The lever was connected with the forward truck; if its wheels left the track and fell five inches or more, a downward pull was expected.

Newly constructed locmotives carry no Watchman; they are not in common use. Petitioner buys and applies them; has experimented with them for seven years; nearly all of its passenger locomotives carry them. The device is not regarded as an essential or integral part. The carrier's general superintendent testified without contradiction: 'The use of this device cannot possibly endanger the operation of the train. It is used in the hope that it may apply the brakes and stop the train in event of derailment of front trucks. My experience with this device is that it sometimes works and sometimes will not work, and that it cannot be relied upon with any degree of certainty.' ; sometimes it had proved effective, sometimes it disappointed. Notwithstanding use Both witnesses who spoke to the point asserted that it was in an experimental stage; was being tried out with the hope of securing good resultsduring seven years, it remained experimental..."

(Emphasis is added by Samfp)

The court case is an interesting read, apparently Wright's device was tried, but with mixed results(?)

[Krokodil]

Look what was written in 1936 US Today in relation to a justice trial - released by the supreme court:

 

A mechanism, known as 'Wright's Little Watchman,' fastened beneath the locomotive frame, carried a valve closing an entrance into the air line actuated by a lever or trigger. A pull on this would open the valve, let out [297 U.S. 398, 400]   air, and thus set the brakes. The lever was connected with the forward truck; if its wheels left the track and fell five inches or more, a downward pull was expected.

This funny. there is almost no mention in railroad books, but one can find the description on the court...[8D]

[Krokodil]

This is perfect. Thank you in advance.

 

I will also search the WEB perhaps I can find also something.

[feltonhill]

N&W also used a similar device, called the Wright Little Watchman.  It was applied to the  lead truck of  some of the Y6, Y6a and Y6b locomotives according to two drawings at the N&WHS archives in Roanoke:

NW-C36447

NW-D41402.

These drawings were last revised ca 1947-1948.  I can take a look at them in next week when I'm at the archives.

[Krokodil]

Thank you for the explanation.

 

It is interesting that how difficult is to find any information about such important device (Otherwise the would not install this ) on the US steam locomotives. Maybe somebody else can send us more information or description (maybe a picture or drawing). I asked people who were on US steam locomotives but they did not even know about such device...

 

 

[Anonymous]

I do not know anything about the Silent Watchman.  But I have heard of something called a "wiggler valve" that was used on the N&W.  It monitored the locomotive oscillation in the vicinity of the pony truck, and set the air if the oscillation got severe enough to cause a derailment.  I am not sure if this was intended to only protect against the derailment of the pony truck or of the whole locomotive. 

Was it common or very feasible for the pony truck of a steam locomotive to derail and then run on without derailing the whole locomotive?

[Krokodil]

Hi

 

thank you for the reply. Do you have some closer technical information about the equipment. Was it installed also to other locomotives.

[SantaFe158]

I believe it sensed a derailment or other problem and would automatically set the brakes and stop the train until the problem was fixed.

[Krokodil]

In the description of the NKP 765 history I found this text.

 

"The Silent Watchman, a special feature that recognized when the pony wheels derailed, still worked after sixteen years of disuse!"

Can somebody explain me what is the Silent Watchman.

Thank you!