The 1361 running gear my be making a trip to Strasburg RR for work......since Steamtown can`t get it done......but thats if they have time to spare from the Disney loco "Lilly Belle".
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
Give me a little credit, bub, for pulling these from memory. I am aware of the Reuben Wells, and I rode behind the 643 when I was a kid. I was listing the ones at what I remembered as the Pennsylvania State Railroad Museum, and may have been in error on my remembrance of the proper name. I was not aware of the B6sa in Delaware. That by chance wasn't the one that lasted until 1959 on a shortline, was it? Thought it was the 34 and the 39 on the Long Island, the 34 being also the number of a famous Yankee player. There were plans to put one of those back into operation once. Still have the Westside Model Co. example of one of those. Fwiw, there are approximately 13 GG-1's in existence, many just shells of their former selves. I remember those working in and out of Harrisburg. I grew up on the West Shore of the Susquehanna River in Camp Hill. FWIW also, I pass working PRR style signals daily in Chicago at Western Avenue/Tower A-2 when I bring my train into or out of the UPRR's California Avenue coachyard. There are examples of both Lines East and Lines West signal bridges there. The ghosts of the Standard Railroad of the World still haunt us.
uphogger FWIW, the one preserved locomotive that isn't at the PRSM is an I1sa Decapod. That one is in New York State somewhere. PRSM has an A5, a B6, two or three H-class engines of various types, a G5, an E6 and an E3(?) Atlantic type, a K4, an L1, and the M1b, #6755. These engines were all part of the historic collection once kept at Northumberland roundhouse (long since razed).They also have some vintage electric units (a DD1 comes to mind) and the last remaining EMD E7A. There are a couple of other preserved PRR engines out there, mostly more ancient than the collection at Strasburg/PSRM. Oh, yeah, can't forget D16 #1223 that operated on the Strasburg for many years.
FWIW, the one preserved locomotive that isn't at the PRSM is an I1sa Decapod. That one is in New York State somewhere. PRSM has an A5, a B6, two or three H-class engines of various types, a G5, an E6 and an E3(?) Atlantic type, a K4, an L1, and the M1b, #6755. These engines were all part of the historic collection once kept at Northumberland roundhouse (long since razed).They also have some vintage electric units (a DD1 comes to mind) and the last remaining EMD E7A. There are a couple of other preserved PRR engines out there, mostly more ancient than the collection at Strasburg/PSRM. Oh, yeah, can't forget D16 #1223 that operated on the Strasburg for many years.
Among the ones you're apparently forgetting or haven't heard about:
An ancient 0-10-0T, the Reuben Wells, at the Children's Museum in Indianapolis, built for a 5.89% grade in Madison, Indiana;
PRR B4a 0-6-0 643, owned and operated by the Williams Grove Historical Steam Engine Association in Dillsburg, Pa.;
PRR B6sa 0-6-0 60, in Hockessin, Delaware (privately owned, former Wilmington & Western);
Two Long Island RR (PRR design) G5 4-6-0's, 35 and 39, on Long Island;
Depending on how you want to nitpick this one, a narrow-gauge 2-6-0 in Waynesburg, Pa. that was indeed owned and operated briefly by the PRR along with the Waynesburg & Washington RR;
And I will conveniently disregard ten or so GG!'s scattered hither and yon, plus several PRR diesels preserved or still in revenue service across the nation.
And for the record, it's called the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, not the "PSRM"
The K5's were attempts to upgrade the Pacific type on the PRR but the results were judged not good enough to warrant mass duplication. A lot of ideas first tried on the K5s were ultimately used on the M1 fleet, particularly the cylinder saddle design. As for the K4's, they were actually pretty hefty. Their weight and tractive effort exceeded that of the USRA Heavy Pacific by a fair margin and were never substantially exceeded by later Pacific designs.
The PRR did design a Pacific to try to equal the NYC J1 Hudson, the K5. I believe there were two built, one with Caprotti or some other cam valve motion, but rebuilt to Walshearts later. They were good lomomotives and continued to be run until desiels began taking over. They were scrapped before most of the K4's because of ease in not servicing oddballs. A combination of the depression that reduced the size of train consists and the massive electrification that reduced the number of steam locomotives require for service combined to doom serial production. They also design an improved Atalntic for lightweight streamliners, but it never got built.
Wow massive amounts of money, that alone would warp your crown sheet . As was stated, finding folks with knowledge of subject.
Jim
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
ndbprr you are correct. Guess I learned a new fact.
you are correct. Guess I learned a new fact.
FWIW, the one preserved locomotive that isn't at the PRSM is an I1sa Decapod. That one is in New York State somewhere. PRSM has an A5, a B6, two or three H-class engines of various types, a G5, an E6 and an E3(?) Atlantic type, a K4, an L1, and the M1b, #6755. These engines were all part of the historic collection once kept at Northumberland roundhouse (long since razed).They also have some vintage electric units (a DD1 comes to mind) and the last remaining EMD E7A. There are a couple of other preserved PRR engines out there, mostly more ancient than the collection at Strasburg/PSRM. Oh, yeah, can't forget D16 #1223 that operated on the Strasburg for many years. I've been a PRR fan since I was a kid (I'm 53 now). OTOH, Murphy's Laws of Railroading states that anyone who has a favorite railroad has never worked for one. Guess I'm in violation, huh? I work for Union Pacific.
The PRR K4 was a good engine for the early 1920s. As other have said; powerful, and simple to maintain.
Problem is that the K4 remained the keystone (no pun intended) of the PRR passenger fleet for too long. By the 1940s, time had passed it by. Double headed K4s were needed for bigger trains. The K4s had built up frames, plain bearings, and sketchy lubrication meant a lot of extra repair time and cost for the engines. First World War vintage counterbalancing means it beat up both itself and the right of way.
My opinion is that once the electrification was finished PRR needed to move forward with a new steam passenger engine for the non-electrified districts. Now, whether they had the money, and whether it should have been a 'modern' 4-8-4 or the T1 duplex, or something else, is a topic for another thread.
Piper106
The deterioration cause by time and the lack of maintenance can trash equipment much quicker than you may believe.....also - don't forget the late 80's was over 20 years ago....a long time for something not protected from the elements. Having said that, virtually anything, if once built can be rebuilt....all it takes is mass quantities of money and proficient craftsmen of skills that are no longer practiced. Piece of cake!
Firelock76 If the K4 can be brought back, (it ran in the late '80's, it can't be THAT bad), say so. If it can't, be honest and don't drive people crazy with guessing. Considering some of the restoration miracles people have accomplished I'd say almost nothing is impossible, all it takes is time and plenty of money.
If the K4 can be brought back, (it ran in the late '80's, it can't be THAT bad), say so. If it can't, be honest and don't drive people crazy with guessing. Considering some of the restoration miracles people have accomplished I'd say almost nothing is impossible, all it takes is time and plenty of money.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
One more thing in favor of the K4: it has its own great song: "K4 Pacific" by Gerry Mulligan.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Per ndbprr's comment about the Altoona museum stonewalling info about the K4 rebuild, I'm sure a lot of railfans besides myself find the lack of information concerning ANY rebuild ANYWHERE pretty darn frustrating. All it does is kick the rumor mill into overdrive until no-one has any idea of what's going on. So listen, if you're a museum or a preservation group and you happen to read these words DON'T be so reticent and closed-mouthed about what's happening. If you need help, ask for it, please, I'm sure someone is willing. Be realistic about restoration. If the K4 can be brought back, (it ran in the late '80's, it can't be THAT bad), say so. If it can't, be honest and don't drive people crazy with guessing. Considering some of the restoration miracles people have accomplished I'd say almost nothing is impossible, all it takes is time and plenty of money.
My understanding is that the K4s represented the design philosophy of Axel Vogt and the Pennsylvania Railroad generally. They favored very simple engines of rather modest size which would have wide route availability and very little maintenance requirements. The Belpaire boiler gave excellent steaming characteristics but the real key to their success was the engineering excellence of the Pennsy's right-of-way which allowed the K4s to run at sustained high speeds over considerable distances. Although some modifications and modernizations were applied to the fleet from time to time the K4s remained simple, robust and reliable machines throughout a career that lasted from 1914 to 1957. During their last decade of service they were run hard and given minimal repairs and servicing and were pretty thoroughly worn out by the time they wer retired. This, at the bottom is probably why 1361s restoration proved to be such a challenge.
A relative of mine was actually employed to work on the Altoona K-4 for awhile . The basic problem dates back to its selection in the '50's as the engine for display at Horseshoe Curve. The engine foreman naturally selected the K-4 that was in the poorest condition at the time since it never occurred to anyone that it would ever run again. Basically, although the exterior was cosmetically restored for the Curve display, it was "junk" that was first in line to the scrapyard until its selection.
Strasburg Railroad may not have a K4 on its property but the Railroad Museum of PA across the road has 3750, which is definitely a K4 the last time I saw it .
Strasburg does not have a K4. There is an M1 in the railroad museum there but no K4. The Keystone has had articles about the incompetence on rebuilding 1361 In the last three issues. One million seven hundred thousand dollars have been wasted by using contractors with no experience and wrong materials as well as mismanagement. It has been a debaucle of epic proportions. Every attempt to obtain information on the problems has in essence been stonewalled b the Altoona railroad museum who are the owners from what I have read.
ndbprr Get a copy of Pennsy Power by Stuaffer for a complete synopsis but about the only downside was the need to doublehead the name trains west of Harrisburg and west. Hence the S1, S2, and T1 in the late forties. One more class of steam engine where the PRR had more then most roads had total engines. The surviving K4 is in pieces at Steamtown to be returned to Altoona after a horribly mismanaged failed rebuild of more than a million dollars that has resulted in it probaby never running again.
Get a copy of Pennsy Power by Stuaffer for a complete synopsis but about the only downside was the need to doublehead the name trains west of Harrisburg and west. Hence the S1, S2, and T1 in the late forties. One more class of steam engine where the PRR had more then most roads had total engines. The surviving K4 is in pieces at Steamtown to be returned to Altoona after a horribly mismanaged failed rebuild of more than a million dollars that has resulted in it probaby never running again.
To be fair, from my understanding of the latest federal boiler regs, the Belpaire firebox that PRR favored doesn't quite meet up to thickness standards. Can anyone confirm this? And there are TWO surviving K4s engines, the #1361 (Steamtown/Altoona) and the #3750 (Strasburg/PSRM). That CPR G-5a firebox design was one of the best in the late steam era and was what saved the crew from certain extinction on the Gettysburg RR when the crownsheet failed from poor maintenance. That accident, as most know, was what brought about all of the new regs.
I would have characterized the poppet-valved Duplex T1 as more advanced. It was certainly more capable.
A bit like comparing a rabbit to a rat, I know...
As far as I know, the K4' s were rather good. They were powerful for their size, and rather easy to manage. They occasionally say that it was slippery, but what steamer wasn't in the hands of a careless or green hogger? Their utility was limited only by trailing tonnage. If it could pull a train of a given tonnage and still meet the timetable, it was a good solid engine. Otherwise, it had to yield to mechanical improvements, including roller bearings, more cylinders or larger ones, etc.
Crandell
I'm no steam guru, but the PRR K4s was a pretty good design when it was first built in the early 1920's. On the down side, PRR management was quite conservative and never really developed a more advanced passenger locomotive even after NYC brought out the J-1 Hudson.
My favorite steam locomotive is the PRR's K4 Pacific. It was the last active duty steam locomotive that I rode behind, and I have several pictures of K4s in my den. Moreover, I was born and reared in Altoona, Pennsylvania, just a stones throw or two from the Juniata Shops where the K4s were built.
I am not a technical guru. So here is my question to the techies. What were the pros and cons of the K4?
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