Sorry if I 'derailed' the "Mohawks vs. Hudsons" thread. Didn't mean to. Anyhoo, I don't think there was a 4-8-4 I didn't like. Canadian National had some cool ones, with Vanderbilt tenders. The CMStP&P #261 is a beautiful machine. I do like the ex-SP #4449, having ridden behind her last summer, although I'd paint it all black ("Heresy!", you say?). Of course, the NYC's "Niagaras" were the most aesthetically appealing of all! Even the UP #844 is a nice, albiet dinky, loco! Speaking of #844, was the UP the only railroad to classify its locos by wheel arrangement? The 844 is a "FEF" (Four-Eight-Four). Did that help the enginemen determine that all the wheels were there, before they went on the road? There is a Great Northern 4-8-4 ensconced at the Havre, MT depot, rusting away. You can get a good look at it, especially on the EB "Empire Builder", while it makes a fuel stop, unless you want to play a couple of hands of "Texas Hold 'Em" at the bar across the street. They even serve American beer (PBR) there, in addition to the Belgian A-B InBev (Budweiser) and South African (Miller) swill! Interesting!
Hays
I like the Northern types as a class, generally. Some don't do much for me, and the CN non-streamlined are among them...just me. I do like the streamlined look very much.
I would have to say that, despite my initial dismissive reaction to the J, I have recently fallen hook, line, and sinker for that engine. The Niagara is a superb engine as well.
I think the 3700's from the AT&SF were also brutes with nice lines...and they were no slouches!
But, for out and out visual appeal, I'd have to lean to the GN S2. Coloured boiler cladding and flying pumps....ooohhh mmmmyyyy....
-Crandell
I'm with you, Hays, on the 4-8-4's. I'd add the Western Maryland Potomacs and LV Wyomings to your list. Both were muscular, hard working brutes. IMO, the WM Potomacs outperformed their Challenger brothers, particularly on the grades west of Cumberland.
Poppyl
Of course, the NYC's "Niagaras" were the most aesthetically appealing of all!
With the face only a mother could love? Getouttahere. Speaking of handsome engines, the unstreamlined N&W J1 takes the cake!
.
How about that most unlikely of 4-8-4's, the C&NW H/H-1 class. Their esthetics may have been a bit lacking but they could definitely move passengers and freight on the Omaha-Chicago main. How could anybody not like a locomotive class nicknamed "Zeppelins of the Rails"?
For my 2cents, The CB&Q northerns were the best looking of all the 4-8-4's with UP's northerns a close second.
Well, the CNR "Bullet Nosed Bettys" were kinda 'cutsey-poo', if you are of the "Thomas, the Tank Engine" generation. The CNR 'workhorse' 4-8-4s were mean looking brutes. Cool, methinks! BTW: how many different names were there for "Niagaras"? I can list Northerns, Potomacs, Wyomings, and ------------, just from the last few posts. Wasn't the C&Os "Kanawhatever" one, too? Fills, please. Did CPR ever own any?
I believe the C&O Kanawha was a 2-8-4. The name comes from a river in West Virginia which is a tributary of the Ohio.
Other names for a 4-8-4 are "Greenbrier" (C&O), "Pocono" (Lackawana), "Confederation" (CN) and "Dixie" (NC & StL).
I've got to add the Reading T-1's to the list. They were probably the most iconic of the eastern Northerns.
In terms of sheer numbers of units rostered one cannot ignore the Richmond, Fredericksburg, & Potomac 551 and 601 classes. For example, the R,F&P rostered over 30 units of the 601 class (Governors and Statesmans). That is a large number for a road that "just" operated between Richmond and Alexandria VA.
BTW, Northerns versus Berks would be an interesting comparison.
Rock Islands 5000 series jsut because. NC&StL also had a nice looking 4-8-4. On one of the boards they are trying to get one back running.
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
The moniker "Northern" comes from the NP which used the 4-8-4 arrangement first. This great engine combined speed, power and TE in one big ball. The Santa Fe 2900 series were generally, the biggest and fastest. You've never lived until you stood beside the tracks with one of these babies flying by at 50 - 55 mph pulling 100 cars of wheat across the Kansas prarie(sp). Still gives me shivers. wrrsends1
Yes. The Canadian Pacific did build two Northerns. K1a class numbers 3100 and 3101. They were the only Northerns rostered on the Canadian Pacific and both have been preserved. 3100 in Ottawa, Ontario at the National Museum of Science and Technology and 3101 in Regina, Saskatchewan outside the steel plant that was to scrap her.
Steve
The CPR 4-8-4's were anomalies that were assigned almost exclusively to the Toronto-Montreal overnight sleeper trains, which were a bit too heavy for the Hudsons.
BigJim Of course, the NYC's "Niagaras" were the most aesthetically appealing of all! With the face only a mother could love? Getouttahere. Speaking of handsome engines, the unstreamlined N&W J1 takes the cake!
My vote goes to the Delaware and Hudson version - capped stack, walkway skirt, unified dome, headlight inset in the center of the smokebox door and smoke lifters. Looks like the Niagara's more sophisticated big brother.
Of course, the 4-8-4 suffered from political correctness long before the term became common. Just look at the number of different names applied to the wheel arrangement. Could you imagine a railroad in the old Confederacy running a Nawthuhn? (NC&StL ran Dixies; RF&P ran Presidents, Generals and Statesmen - all named, and all named after true sons of Virginia.)
Chuck
For my two cents worth, I think the Cotton Belt 819 was one of the best looking Northerns that ever run.
I never was thrilled by the D&H, and B&O, locos with the capped stacks. They would have looked at home in England. Can't remember seeing either of the CPR 'Northerns', but I may have pictures of them. I hung out around the CPR engine houses in Montreal, back in the '50s. Can't remember seeing any of CPR's three 'E' units, either. I'll have to check my slides, if there is anything left on them.
Good choice here,
though the torpedo-like, clean streamlining shape of the past WWII engines is one of the best I believe,
the unskirted "War Babys" just like as sharp as a Ipanema girl.
Cheers
lars
BNSFwatcher I never was thrilled by the D&H, and B&O, locos with the capped stacks. They would have looked at home in England. Can't remember seeing either of the CPR 'Northerns', but I may have pictures of them. I hung out around the CPR engine houses in Montreal, back in the '50s. Can't remember seeing any of CPR's three 'E' units, either. I'll have to check my slides, if there is anything left on them. Hays
There's a good reason the D&H locos had an English appearance. A former D&H president, I believe it was L.F. Lorree, liked the capped stacks and smooth appearance of English locomotives, and he influenced the design of the D&H locos accordingly. The D&H Northerns and Challengers actually came about after his retirement, but the design asthetics were still there.
For my money the finest Northerns were the Southern Pacific's Daylights, particularly the GS-4s. I always knew they were sleek and probably sported the most workmanlike streamlining of any passenger engine. I didn't realize what huge brutes they were until I acquired an HO brass example and tried to run it on my layout. It just barely made it around it terms of width and hight and dwarfed most of my Pennsy steamers. I also vote for the Santa Fe's 2900 class with the extra long tenders. Santa Fe had a very traditionalist approach to it's big steamers that made for some very handsome engines.
The Santa Fe 2900's were called War babies. They only ordered them for one reason they could not get any more FT's. They also had the same tenders as the last group of Texas class engines. Those monsters with Tenders were over 125 feet long. You want power the 2900 class hit 6500 DBHP at 35 MPH and routinely took mail and troop trains from LA to KC without an engine change. Name one other line that ran Steam Engines that long before a change. ATSF still holds the record for the longest run with Steam without a Engine Change in Regular Scheduled Service the Fast Mail had 3461 a Hudson take it from LA to Chicago and BACK without being changed. Yet the Pennsy was the Standard for Steam.
The Pennsy designers at Altoona could not hold the Strap of the guys at the Santa Fe. Sorry they got more out of an engine than the Pennsy even thought of.
I had heard that the NYC ran Niagaras between Harmon and Chicago without engine change as well. I don't think that's quite as far as LA-KC, but still pretty impressive as well.
CRT (just "Harmon", then) -CHI was about 925 miles. An impressive run for an impressive machine. KCY-LAX about double that. The "Niagaras" were just getting warmed up when they ran out of track! If LaSalle Street Terminal (don't they call it a "Station" in CHI?) hadn't been stub-ended, who knows.... Onward!
edbentonThe Santa Fe 2900's were called War babies. They only ordered them for one reason they could not get any more FT's. They also had the same tenders as the last group of Texas class engines. Those monsters with Tenders were over 125 feet long. You want power the 2900 class hit 6500 DBHP at 35 MPH and routinely took mail and troop trains from LA to KC without an engine change. Name one other line that ran Steam Engines that long before a change. ATSF still holds the record for the longest run with Steam without a Engine Change in Regular Scheduled Service the Fast Mail had 3461 a Hudson take it from LA to Chicago and BACK without being changed. Yet the Pennsy was the Standard for Steam. The Pennsy designers at Altoona could not hold the Strap of the guys at the Santa Fe. Sorry they got more out of an engine than the Pennsy even thought of.
The biggest common Pennsy engine, the 2-10-4 J1 was for the most part a direct copy of the Lima designed C&O T1. Many of Pennsy's later big engines were also modified off of the Lima design.
That 6,500 figure may be a typo. A 2900 class was credited with 5,600 IHP and 4,590 DBHP (no speeds specified) in a Feb 1987 Trains article. The latter figure confirms GP40-2's number. I also believe it was in Farrington's book, Santa Fe's Big 3, that the 3776 class was noted to have a relatively high pressure loss through the superheaters at high steam flow rates, which limited its HP output.
I recall reading in a couple of places that pure oil-burners were designed with relatively low direct heating surfaces and higher indirect heating surfaces compared to coal burners because of the oil flame behavior and heating qualities. The tradeoff was more heat exchanged in the tubes in flues and slightly less in the firebox. Has anyone else seen any info on this?
Best example I know is SP's GS class, which had fairly small firebox volume and longer flues, but didn't seem to suffer from compromised performance, based on 4449 anyway!
A couple of points - When it comes to a large 'fleet' of Northerns; the Rock Island had 85 Northerns(most in the US). Only the CN had more. The Rock Island R67 class engines were used as the 'pattern' fpr the WWII copies that the Milw and D&H received.
The GN S-2 class engines were 80" drivered passenger engines used on the Empire Builder and Oriental Ltd. The GN does not run in Kansas or Nebraska! I suspect they may have run their last miles on grain extra's across North Dakota.
Most Northerns look good - they are a balanced machine. The CB&Q O-5 class may have been the most 'frumpy' of the 4-8-4's, and those Rock Island engines were attractive. I always liked the Lima built O-20 class of the SOO Line. Whether a 74" drivered freight hauler or a 80" drivered passenger engine, they all were classics of late steam design.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
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