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Why do many steam engines travel with a diesel?

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Why do many steam engines travel with a diesel?
Posted by Sawtooth500 on Monday, November 23, 2009 11:42 PM
A lot of times when I see a steam engine pulling a train, there is also a diesel behind it. Sometimes this is for relatively short trains - to me it seems like the steam engine should be able to handle them by itself. Why is that?
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Posted by Captaincog on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:44 AM

Immediate Roadside Assistance or maybe to ease the load and wear/tear on the steamer?

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Posted by challenger3980 on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:44 AM

There are many different reasons for having a diesel along with a Steam excursion, protection power, Hotel power, Dynamic braking, and various train control system requirements on certain track routes.

  Union Pacific, for example, has Complete Faith in their 4-8-4 #844 and 4-6-6-4 #3985, and they will often pull sizeable trains unassisted. When the 844 and 3985 visited the Pacific North west in 2007 and 2005, there were times that a diseasel(pun intended) was along for dynamic braking in the Blue Mountains of Eastern Oregon. They covered many,many miles in sole charge of their trains.

 Other railroads may have their own requirements/restrictions for Steam operating on their tracks.

Doug

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Posted by selector on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:44 AM

My understanding is that it can be for a number of reasons, and not necessarily any one of them at a time.  Firstly, the host railroad, the one owning the tracks, may impose a diesel for security/insurance purposes, and perhaps the insurers of the actual excursion event headed by the steamer may require it.  Also, the diesels can offer tractive effort support on particularly steep grades, whether retrograde or prograde.  This happened on the second excursion of the BC Heritage Railway's Royal Hudson, on which I rode with She and a friend, this spring.  The previous day, it had rained and they had a dickens of a time getting up the escarpment into Richmond.  On our ride, a GP-9 was included.  Finally, the diesel can also provide more 'head-end' power for the entire consist, but in terms of usable electricity for running compressors, air-conditioners, and so on.

There is sure to be a number of responses that will add more, or that correct my misapprehensions.

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Posted by Sawtooth500 on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 1:09 AM
Yeah all those reasons make sense... less wear on the steamer... still, it's sad to see a diesel behind a steamer!
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Posted by nwo4rf on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:43 AM

Alot of times it is the insurance company that wants the diesel. When I was helping set up excursions for 1522. The railroad was ok with the engine running by its self. But when we contacted the insurance company they would not underwite the trip unless a diesel was in the consist.

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Posted by cx500 on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 11:36 AM

One more consideration not yet discussed is that on long distance runs, especially ferry trips, using the diesel to help power the train reduces the amount of water used.  No longer can you find a water tank every 60 miles, pause for 5 minutes and refill the tender.  The auxiliary canteens help solve the problem, but it can be tight to cover 2 subdivisions, especially if there are hills to climb.    It is a cardinal sin to run out of water for the boiler.

John

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Posted by selector on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:36 PM

Good point, John, and I would add that it is unpardonable, and virtually always lethal for at least one crewmember.

I do know, getting back to the host road's requirements, that CN precluded the use of their rails by the Royal Hudson for about a year after the engine was rebuilt.  I don't recall an official reason, but it comes to mind something about needing a host railroad diesel to lead the steamer over the route.

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Posted by Sawtooth500 on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 2:59 AM
But CN let's the Royal Hudson use their rails without a diesel now?
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Posted by selector on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:26 PM

Well, sorta yes and sorta no.  For reasons unclear to me, on both excursions this spring, the host roads, two of them to accommodate the excursion route, imposed none of their own diesels.  There was only the Heritage Railway's own F unit on the first day, and that was to run backwards on the return route...no turning facility, and I don't know what restrictions were in place for running tender first to the departure point. 

The next day, after a slippery rainy first day, they added the GP9, but that was Rail Link, and not the CN or Southern hosts.

Now I'm confused.

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, November 30, 2009 10:03 AM

IIRC, the Clinchfield painted an F B-unit in their passenger car scheme and mounted a controller in the cab of their 10-wheeler to run it.  I don't recall if HEP or steam was involved, too, but the Diesel was definitely there to provide a helping hand with getting over the road.

I'm pretty sure the steamer is preserved somewhere.  I almost think I've seen it, but I don't remember where.

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Posted by Sawtooth500 on Monday, November 30, 2009 11:31 AM
Speaking of HEP, when UP 3985 pulls a train, I'm guessing those UP cars are no longer steam heated, does 3995 actually have a HEP generator installed in it or are those UP cars still steam heated?
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Posted by Dakguy201 on Monday, November 30, 2009 11:52 AM
No, neither 3985 or 844 can provide HEP, and the cars are electrically heated/cooled. The UP has special cars, which are generally toward the front of the consist, that contain a diesel generaor.  They are visually different as they contain numerous air vents along one side and it you walk the length of the train the noise of the diesel is quite noticable.  I'm not certain just how many of these cars the UP has. 
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Posted by JimValle on Monday, November 30, 2009 5:01 PM

I can tell you from bitter experience why diesels are included in the consist.  Back in the "Seventies I rode on two steam excursions where the steamer had a road failure and laid out the railroad.  One was a High Iron doubleheader over Horshoe Curve where Cayahuga Valle's 2-8-2 wrung off her radius rod and stalled the train in the middle of the grade,  The emergency stop broke the train into three parts and we were delayed for over two hours until Conrail diesels took over the train and delivered it back to Pittsburgh.  The other was when Ross Rowlands Greenbriar 4-8-4 quit while piloting a Safety Express excursion at Jessop Maryland.  It seems a piece of slate got stuck in the stoker screw and there was no way the crew could hand fire and keep going.  CSX diesels rescued us after a two hour delay and, even though the stoker was cleared by the time they got there, the railroad insisted on having the diesels tow us the rest of the way to Baltimore.  Personally, I enjoyed those departures from the routine but there were a lot of unhappy faces on those trains and even more in the railroad's home offices!

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Posted by MJChittick on Monday, November 30, 2009 8:27 PM

Dakguy201

The UP has special cars, which are generally toward the front of the consist, that contain a diesel generator.  They are visually different as they contain numerous air vents along one side and it you walk the length of the train the noise of the diesel is quite noticable.  I'm not certain just how many of these cars the UP has.

 

UP has three HEP Power Cars in their Heritage Fleet.  See the following link to the UP web site:

http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/history/histequip/power.shtml

 

Mike

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Posted by espeefoamer on Monday, November 30, 2009 10:08 PM

In June, last year, when 3751 ran to San Diego, a P42 was along to provide HEP. They even let the steamer pull the 10 car train up Miramar hill ( 2.5 %) unassisted. Cool

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Posted by Dakguy201 on Tuesday, December 1, 2009 9:47 AM

This is a picture of one of the UP's HEP cars:

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, December 1, 2009 7:49 PM

     I understood it had something to do with signaling and electronics needed by a train to occupy the mainline.

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Posted by MJChittick on Tuesday, December 1, 2009 10:11 PM

Murphy Siding

     I understood it had something to do with signaling and electronics needed by a train to occupy the mainline.

Not at all.  For example, UP 844 & 3985 have all the required cab signalling apparatus to operate anywhere in the UP system all by themselves (and they frequently do).  However there are occasions when even the UP includes diesel locomotive(s) in the consist either for additional tractive effort or, more frequently, for dynamic braking.

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Posted by Trainsorbust on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 9:47 PM
I'm in no way an expert, but from what I know it is for dynamic breaking, so that the break shows on the steam engine do not wear away.
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